# Veteran Talent Analysis + Quintessential Build **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 21, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323 "2024-10-21T21:43:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BatlordCarcas](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/batlordcarcas/32/78696_2.png) [@BatlordCarcas](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/BatlordCarcas)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 10:53pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/21 "2024-10-22T22:53:38Z")
Can this become the beginning of a really good comprehensive guide to Veteran? Can it be called: The Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer Or The Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer of Tertium ? Would add to the collections of how there is Ogrynomicon and Psyker Atheneum Still looking for a noteworthy guide on Zealots with a lore friendly title. One that can give all the compiled best of (and fair perspectives of) builds, weapons etc. Maybe call it the Zealots Scriptures, or Zealots Codex, or Preachers Testament? ---
**Author:** ![Mezmorki](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mezmorki/32/20666_2.png) [@Mezmorki](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Mezmorki)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 1:30am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/22 "2024-10-23T01:30:52Z")
> [@BatlordCarcas](#): > > Still looking for a noteworthy guide on Zealots with a lore friendly title. Well there’s a parallel zealot conversation going on here: > [@Is there a better way to build this? (zealot)](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/is-there-a-better-way-to-build-this-zealot/100237/47): > > I’m working on some build guides, and since there’s a good Zealot discussion going, I figure I’d crowdsource some feedback here. First is the image below, which provides an assessment of the overall value of each of the Zealot’s Talents. The bright green ones are the generally universally useful talents, some of which are conditional on getting crits or backstabs. Curious what others think on how I’ve assessed things. Finally, a solid “quintessential build” that st… I’m hoping to do a similar thing for all the classes and then role it into a more comprehensive guide. ---
**Author:** ![Gideon404](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/gideon404/32/96699_2.png) [@Gideon404](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Gideon404)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 2:24am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/23 "2024-10-23T02:24:57Z")
The current ogrynomicon equivalent for veteran is called Hammer of the Emperor. Link: [https://1drv.ms/w/c/e2a0a519389b2f30/EciPxKdXTJlPiEj2LUHKr58BbN\_LckMOC4bba3qnlO8THg](https://1drv.ms/w/c/e2a0a519389b2f30/EciPxKdXTJlPiEj2LUHKr58BbN_LckMOC4bba3qnlO8THg) ---
**Author:** ![supra898](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/supra898/32/116683_2.png) [@supra898](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/supra898)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/24 "2024-10-23T07:27:18Z")
the current ogrnyomicon has tons of misinformation and straight up bad advice how is it recommended to anyone ever, is beyond me ---
**Author:** ![Gideon404](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/gideon404/32/96699_2.png) [@Gideon404](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Gideon404)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 7:41am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/25 "2024-10-23T07:41:40Z")
It’s the one that gets used as an example. Atheneum only gets recognised now that a link to its Steam page has been added to the new guide subforum. All of these guides start to show their limits once you’ve played enough. At that point (hopefully) you can spot the points you need to tweak. ---
**Author:** ![Crayvun](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/crayvun/32/60745_2.png) [@Crayvun](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Crayvun)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 11:08am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/26 "2024-10-23T11:08:20Z")
Hol’ up, whats with TDR being rated at ‘excellent’? I’m genuinely curious, since calculating this whole thing by value is the whole schtick. Why do you rate TDR so high? Is it even possible to get the Vets toughness to a point where you actually gained value from thse talents? Mostwise I think I agree on the rest of them, but yeah, TDR surpirsed me. Oh I just wanna say! While I agree that Weapon Specialist has value, and that value is high simply because of the free crit and the increased attack speed. I actually think that as a talent, in a veteran class, its boring, badly designed rubbish that I’d happily trade out for something more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![supra898](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/supra898/32/116683_2.png) [@supra898](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/supra898)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 12:05pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/27 "2024-10-23T12:05:13Z")
> [@Crayvun](#): > > something more interesting. how is a talent that makes you actually play the game less interesting than Focus Target which just makes you press a button to work What? ---
**Author:** ![alsozara](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/alsozara/32/6944_2.png) [@alsozara](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/alsozara)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 12:11pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/28 "2024-10-23T12:11:26Z")
Yeah don’t think not being interesting is WS’ issue. More just being awkward to interact with and having niche to outright dubious sub nodes. It’s got a good little theme with agile on the same side of the tree and fits with OfB also on right side for very flexible toughness sustain. I’ve always been a fan of builds that encourage a lot of weapon swaps (Bounty Hunter is one of my VT2 mains, swapping between BoP and rapier continuously is a joy), core concept is good it’s just been in need of some polish since it released. ---
**Author:** ![Crayvun](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/crayvun/32/60745_2.png) [@Crayvun](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Crayvun)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 12:22pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/29 "2024-10-23T12:22:38Z")
I wasn’t saying ANY of the capstones are interesting, buddy. I just said, even though Weapon Specialist is “good”, I think its a boring talent. In this day and age, surely we can make 40k class talents with a bit more spice, ay? Again, I think ALL of the capstone talents are boring and badly designed, even if they make damage ‘go big’. ---
**Author:** ![supra898](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/supra898/32/116683_2.png) [@supra898](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/supra898)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 12:28pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/30 "2024-10-23T12:28:44Z")
weap spec is the only one that’s interesting idk ---
**Author:** ![Mezmorki](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mezmorki/32/20666_2.png) [@Mezmorki](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Mezmorki)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 12:31pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/31 "2024-10-23T12:31:26Z")
i tend to look at WS as if it was a single node - rarely ever worth putting points in the sub-node. So for conversation sake, if it was a just a “node” (and not a keystone) that added 100% ranged crit chance for 5s after 3+ melee kills AND also +15% melee attack speed for 10s after a ranged kill, I think we’d all say “yeah, that’s a pretty good node.” Practically speaking, on damnation+ difficulty you are constantly bouncing between melee and ranged during any substantial engagement and the uptime on WS is pretty good. This is also one of the main ways vet has for boosting crit chance outside of Deadshot, which has it’s own caveats. No one talks enough about agile engagement either, which adds +25% damage for 5s after a melee or ranged kill when swapping weapons. Which is strong for similar reasons. ---
**Author:** ![alsozara](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/alsozara/32/6944_2.png) [@alsozara](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/alsozara)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 12:39pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/32 "2024-10-23T12:39:59Z")
> [@Mezmorki](#): > > that added 100% ranged crit chance for 5s I regret to inform you that the crit chance is only on the first shot after activation. It’s the fire rate that lasts 5 seconds (a bit short to my mind for the size of the bonus). I think IJ is still just an overall better boost for any weapon that really benefits from the fire rate, but the guaranteed crit at least has some nice uses for slower firing weapons. > [@Mezmorki](#): > > No one talks enough about agile engagement either, which adds +25% damage for 5s after a melee or ranged kill when swapping weapons. Which is strong for similar reasons. A few people around here do, yeah no question it’s great. Kinda highlights an issue with WS IMO by working flawlessly with hellbore with no swap requirement. Stacking agile engagement with WS on hellbore without needing to swap is my Vet wet dream. ---
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 12:51pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/33 "2024-10-23T12:51:19Z")
> [@alsozara](#): > > I regret to inform you that the crit chance is only on the first shot after activation. It’s the fire rate that lasts 5 seconds (a bit short to my mind for the size of the bonus). I think IJ is still just an overall better boost for any weapon that really benefits from the fire rate, but the guaranteed crit at least has some nice uses for slower firing weapons. That’s why this talent is badly designed. MF should be focused on precision weapons that are not automatic. Sadly, it is better to use an automatic gun… WS should be great for automatic guns, but sadly, again, this is the contrary. After completing the worst veteran penance, I have well understood that a revolver is really the best with WS. However, then, what is the interest of this? I have surgical, that take a longer time to assure a critic but still, it is sufficient and even better for my use. I am glad some of you like these keystones. A lot don’t. I rarely find players that don’t pick keystones, but when I see one most of the time it is a veteran. (surprisingly, I have succeeded to find something fun to play with psyker… and that doesn’t use keystones… tbh, psykers keystones never impressed me.) ---
**Author:** ![Crayvun](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/crayvun/32/60745_2.png) [@Crayvun](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Crayvun)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 1:32pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/34 "2024-10-23T13:32:58Z")
yep, totally see the logic there, and completely agree! Obviously, since you’re doing this as a guide for people, makes total sense that you rate it highly. Still curious though, why do you rate Toughness Damage Reduction so highly? I’ve always been under the assumption that regardless of how much you pump the total toughness, and then apply damage reduction on it, there is little to no difference to someone who _only_ increased the total. Bare in mind, I ask purely out of interest! I’m not saying I feel strongly either way 😛 > [@supra898](#): > > weap spec is the only one that’s interesting > idk Man, I just don’t know what to tell you. Its some attack speed and crit. As a **capstone**. I mean they are all bad in terms of design. Trash little bonuses to our stats. This is a decade after the Vermintide titles, Fatshark should have evolved the mechanics in this new **main** title. Capstones should change how we play in fun and meaningful ways, and they just don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jonboy](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/jonboy/32/79392_2.png) [@Jonboy](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Jonboy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 2:10pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/35 "2024-10-23T14:10:34Z")
Quick Question on Charismatic (I take it!) … and coherency radii in general. If I take an ability to enlarge my coherency radius - e.g. on Vet or Ogryn. Is that a 2-way thing? i.e. Do _ **I** _ benefit from another players coherency-bonuses in this extended range, or do they only benefit from my bonuses? ---
**Author:** ![supra898](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/supra898/32/116683_2.png) [@supra898](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/supra898)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/36 "2024-10-23T14:24:10Z")
> [@Jonboy](#): > > Do _ **I** _ benefit from another players coherency-bonuses in this extended range yes you just increase your radius ---
**Author:** ![Jonboy](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/jonboy/32/79392_2.png) [@Jonboy](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Jonboy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/37 "2024-10-23T14:26:29Z")
I see. So effectively the bigger radius between any two players is applied. ---
**Author:** ![Nish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9dc877/32.png) [@Nish](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Nish)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 5:03pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/38 "2024-10-23T17:03:11Z")
> [@Mezmorki](#): > > That said, this attempts to paint a picture for **how universally useful a given talent is** and how well it helps you move through the talent tree in a productive way. - **Out for blood** and **movement speed** is blue? OfB is one of the best toughness talents in game, and movement speed is a crazy valuable stat, at least good. - **TDR** talents Excellent while **flat toughness** talents just neutral? They give more Effective Toughness even the +15 one. - +5% crit excellent? Maybe Neutral would be better. - S **tamina delay** is just neutral and even weak? That’s an easy excellent node, game feels really bad without at least one of them. - **Opening salvo** good? It’s a trash node that is only useful in some builds. - **Skirmisher** is also at most neutral (I’d consider it trash) even with the duration buff. - I also find it strange that **Krak** which is a super situational blitz is rated higher than **Frag** which is generally useful. - **Exploit Weakness** is also a Trash/Trap node. It has 0 use. - **Desperado** and **Trench Fighter Drill** could easily be rated excellent. These are some real melee power nodes. That’s my 2 cents, other stuff is debatable, but seems fine I guess. ---
**Author:** ![alsozara](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/alsozara/32/6944_2.png) [@alsozara](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/alsozara)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 1:37am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/39 "2024-10-24T01:37:23Z")
> [@Nish](#): > > **Exploit Weakness** is also a Trash/Trap node. It has 0 use. So very funny to me that two of the weapons I’d otherwise consider using this with have access to uncanny, a blessing that gives rending instead of brittle, and **6 times more of it**. Truly some moon logic balancing there. ---
**Author:** ![Gideon404](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/gideon404/32/96699_2.png) [@Gideon404](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Gideon404)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 7:08am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323/40 "2024-10-24T07:08:05Z")
> [@Nish](#): > > movement speed is a crazy valuable Glad someone said this. We get long threads about how knife movement speed is “breaking the game” and then I see people rating movement nodes and aura as meh. [Previous page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/veteran-talent-analysis-quintessential-build/100323.md?page=3)