# Vermintide is painful and frustrating

**URL:** <https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767>\
**Category:** Gameplay Feedback\
**Created:** [August 7, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767 "2019-08-07T22:38:41Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![souI23](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/soui23/32/25193_2.png) [@souI23](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/souI23)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/41 "2019-08-09T19:23:01Z")

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Exactly. Maybe Cata should “force” premade (maybe). Legend totally not.

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**Author:** ![souI23](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/soui23/32/25193_2.png) [@souI23](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/souI23)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/42 "2019-08-09T19:29:40Z")

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> [@Torantolis](#):
>
> Well, I fundamentally disagree that we ‘should’ be able to solo anything in a game designed to be entirely based on 4-player co-op

I can agree, but then Fatshark should not let to spawn boss + horde + tons of specials in a tight place.

Vermintide is a coop game, but sometimes you have to work alone… we need a balance, and imho we have lost it with this patch.

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**Author:** ![souI23](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/soui23/32/25193_2.png) [@souI23](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/souI23)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/43 "2019-08-09T19:34:39Z")

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Same impression. Also if I win, I get boring after (very) few matches. Never happened before.

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**Author:** ![quickkill](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/quickkill/32/21856_2.png) [@quickkill](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/quickkill)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/44 "2019-08-09T19:49:21Z")

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Lol, don’t have much experience playing other popular coop games eh? You can solo in L4D2 (seen someone doing solo runs with medkit only), you can also solo in KF2 (done that many times myself). So no just because a game is tagged with team work and coop doesn’t mean it must deny players choices of going solo.

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**Author:** ![Ony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ce7236/32.png) [@Ony](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ony)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/45 "2019-08-09T20:04:00Z")

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So many games that I played were destroyed by flamers in the forum.  
Ok you cant handle legend , then practise on champ or die on legend and learn. Its not Fatsharks fail its your own fail. Yes its harder now but before Winds of Magic simply everyone rushed Legend.  
It was not a challenge anymore. Many classes were pointless or too weak.  
Now you need more Teamwork, better Movement, you have to use everything you have. After a while Legend will be easy like before, but then you have the next difficulty, then Deeds and twitchmode and high weaves.  
Not everyone can handle the high levels of difficulty, etc., but if you want to do that, then practise.

Fatshark did a great job, they gave content for everyone, but not every content for everyone, thats fair. Cause without a challenge it gets boring.  
I love the game and hope you do not destroy the game because of the rumble in the forum.

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**Author:** ![souI23](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/soui23/32/25193_2.png) [@souI23](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/souI23)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/46 "2019-08-09T20:10:50Z")

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Guys, we can close the entire forum… we have the solution: “git gud” 🤣

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**Author:** ![thunderfingerz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@thunderfingerz](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/thunderfingerz)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/47 "2019-08-09T20:54:35Z")

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Because flaming online is a better solution?

But seriously. Yes there are some problems we can all agree too and that HOPEFULLY get fixed. However I dont really understand the huge backlash. Especially things like farming reds is too difficult now. I did that the last few months and relying in a game to be fun via farming is something that I personally cant comprehend.

Im really happy that there is new challenges INgame instead of just grinding for loot. And I dont want to tell anyone what to do but I have been playing on champ (since Im in no way a hardcore player. Got wiped on legend before wom quite frequently) and its a blast! Like really really fun. And as a result i now understand that have to do much more maneuvering when beastmen are involved because those spears are f\*\*\*in deadly.

But sure thats personal preference since i see it as just more content. Fighting my way back into legend with the possibility to sink my teeth into cata later down the line just seems to me like just more stuff to do.

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**Author:** ![souI23](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/soui23/32/25193_2.png) [@souI23](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/souI23)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/48 "2019-08-09T21:08:24Z")

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Nope, it isn’t a better solution, but honestly I’m tired about these guys that do NOT read a single post except title. They are harmful to the forum… but I guess I can just ignore them.

Anyway “previous Legend” was not just grindind time. Expert players could farm it, in order to obtain good equip for the real end game (Cata). But I saw a lot of players that could not handle Legend and there were more Veteran lobbies that Legend ones.

Actually we have Veteran that is useless to farm (and farming is a game reality), and Legend that is almost a second Cataclysm.

And moreover the real problem isn’t the difficoulty, but the type of difficulty.

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**Author:** ![Voidq](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/voidq/32/20522_2.png) [@Voidq](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Voidq)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/49 "2019-08-09T21:29:17Z")

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Because that’s all they say, they all refuse to actually explain what’s wrong with the combat and get offended instead of offering anything even remotely close to a possible solution. (gaim sucks, revert everything isnt it)

Masking “I can’t do Legend easily anymore” with “its not hard but boring” isn’t exactly constructive either, all it does is make their egos feel better. And the fact that this is very much the case is clearly demonstrated by the very few arguments that they do bring to the table which seem to be mostly “I have to use push now and it sucks” or “I might actually need a specific weapon type to solo hordes safely instead of just ANY weapon”.  
If you can’t point out the problem then your feedback is pointless. “Hey fatshark you made the game worse and you dont listen to your community and everyone hates it (because my opinion is everyone) and I have X hours of playtime btw and just cancel the update like wtf” - how is this constructive? It tells me absolutely nothing as a developer.

The only way the “new meta” could ever possibly feel as vastly different to previous build as they claim is if they literally never used push, block, pushstab or heavy attack before because those now became more important. None of this is a new mechanic though and all of it was already very important before yet most people just spammed left click and wiped because of it. Now they simply wipe faster but for the exact same reason and blame the game itself of course. Fatshark implemented a mechanic that actually encourages good habits and should, in theory, teach people to control hordes via stagger and instead of at least trying to learn it everyone is going ballistic mere hours after the update.

To further prove my point, in one of the last updates they severely nerfed enemy mass and you can stagger everything laughably easily on Legend, way more easily than before WoM in fact. They already made it WAY easier to deal with density yet you still see the exact same people complain, recycling the same old arguments.  
No matter how easy they make the game for people who do use their weapons properly the game will still be too hard (excuse me, “boring”) for people who refuse to do anything other than mindless light attack spam.

Don’t know about you but having to actually ‘combo’ different attacks (they exist for a reason) and push(stabs) etc. sounds way more interesting and engaging to me than simply binding my left click to scroll wheel and going nuts. Spamming left click is the boring option here IMO, not the other way around.

BUT if their definition of FUN is just that, spamming left click, then my suggestion to move to a lower difficulty is very much relevant as it solves their problem entirely.  
And no, I’m not elitist. I never said there was something wrong with playing on Champ, the 5 difficulty levels exist for a reason. It’s you who suggests that there’s something wrong and offensive about it 😉

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**Author:** ![souI23](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/soui23/32/25193_2.png) [@souI23](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/souI23)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/50 "2019-08-09T21:41:21Z")

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Exactly who are “they”? Do you know every player in order to say that “boring = I can’t play Legend”? But mainly, why do you write this here? I can be right or wrong, but I have motivated every post.

“My opinion is everyone”, man, you must no more remember the threads into beta section… it is enough read the new poll. Most players want the old game, and everone has his opinions… but nope, right, they can’t handle legend and you aren’t an elitist.

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**Author:** ![mahkra](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mahkra/32/15259_2.png) [@mahkra](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/mahkra)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/51 "2019-08-09T22:06:24Z")

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> [@Voidq](#):
>
> they all refuse to actually explain what’s wrong with the combat

You’re just as handwavey when saying what’s _right_ with the combat. None of us are the devs; we can’t change variables in the code and then playtest to figure out which changes are actually making the game feel bad to us.

Many people have given reasons that they don’t like the changed combat; you just disregard their reasons and say that their perception is wrong because you don’t perceive things the same way.

Also, it’s not helpful when you create strawman arguments and ignore what people are actually saying. I don’t know anyone who played pre-2.0 by just spamming left click; everyone I know used push and push-stab, a mix of light & heavy attacks, and occasionally block. (Hyperdensity meant that blocking was pretty bad, as you’d get hit by so many things at once that block would just get broken right away. So usually push+dodge was better than blocking.) But every time anyone says they liked the old combat better, you just say that spamming left click sucks. _We never played that way!_

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**Author:** ![Argonaut14](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/argonaut14/32/13131_2.png) [@Argonaut14](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Argonaut14)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/52 "2019-08-09T22:08:07Z")

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It is a benefit to have a red weapon surely, as the max stats can make a big difference to your builds. This is a thing that is actually quite good to get as it makes quite a difference to your characters power.

Getting an Emperor’s Chest(and only and Emperors chest) in Champion has something like a \<4% chance of getting a Red. Getting a peasants vault has something like 7% increase with each step up in vault acquired in legend.

People who want to improve their build will - of course- attempt legend difficulty.

Whether or not they enjoy the new or old playstyle or like WoM or whether they are ready for Legend or not, people will always attempt things that offer the better loot to improve the power of their character.

Forcing people from Legend into Champion by increasing the difficulty is all well and good, but it severely restricts a players ability to give themselves a leg-up by getting a Red. Forcing someone from Champion to Veteran makes it _completely impossible_ for them to gain the Red and possible power increase required to hold their own and learn how to get better in Champion - blocking them from progression. The jump from Veteran to Champion as a newer player was quite Punishing Pre-2.0.

God Knows how hard it is now.

Suggesting people play a difficulty they’re comfortable with only works if the content is available at every difficulty otherwise people will ALWAYS attempt the harder stuff to get the content. It’s a simple as people wanting value for money for what they’ve brought.

When players see a Red skin and ask about it they’re going to want one and will go into Legend whether they’re ready or not.

The underlying problem therefore, is that the ability of players to gain new content - red weapons, frame and hats - is so minuscule that playing at a lower difficulty has absolutely no appeal and value for many people.

A possible solution would be to spend essence on a massive array of cosmetics, with different difficulties giving different essence at the end of each run. This way high level players would get cosmetics faster without restricting the lower level players from getting it ever. Of course there needs to BE a wide range of cosmetics for people to aim at, and a continuous stream of additions to make things worthwhile.

TL;DR It is no fun getting downed by slaggy chip-hits and cheap shots. Dropping to a lower difficulty restricts a players ability to have a chance of getting the tiny %age of cosmetics or Reds. People are getting fed up with the complete overhaul of the game and having to relearn a load of stuff. No amount of condescending posts will alter the fact huge swathes of accomplished players are very annoyed, and inferring that people moaning must be completely incompetent is pretty insulting.

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**Author:** ![thunderfingerz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@thunderfingerz](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/thunderfingerz)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 10:49pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/53 "2019-08-09T22:49:41Z")

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Sure but you make it sound as if you would have to stay in champion forever. Play maybe a few days and you get the feel for the new mechanics thats all im saying.

And IMO the loot system was broken before wom so at least to me it makes no difference. I would actually prefer to make reds drop faster as they really are the key to full book runs on legen dan give you a good chance for cata (

I wrote about this some time back and even in pre wom getting reds only on the highest difficulty is stupid because at that point what are you using them for.

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**Author:** ![Voidq](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/voidq/32/20522_2.png) [@Voidq](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Voidq)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/54 "2019-08-09T22:57:11Z")

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Every single thread I saw just recycled the same old vague ‘talking but not saying anything’ arguments. Why don’t you list the good examples here then? I’m genuinely curious. Give me just 3 solid examples of what is so fundamentally wrong with 2.0 combat, any kind of logical reasoning behind WHY it is wrong and how would you fix it. That would be constructive, no?

If you were already making a good use of pushing, push-stabbing and whatnot before - then WHAT exactly is so much different about the current playstyle that is supposedly mandatory? Everyone mentions it but nobody says what it is or why it is so. Instead of simply repeating that it’s boring, explain WHY and how do you fix it.

So far I’ve seen zero of that here.

People claim the game makes them angry because they wipe on Legend but they also categorically refuse to maybe play on Champion for a while and see what the problem might be. If something feels too difficult for one person but still fairly easy for someone else, is it really a bad design or simply two people doing the same thing at a different skill level? Common sense answers that question and it has nothing to do with elitism. Am I salty that I’m not doing every sport on an olympic level? No, I simply find people of similar skill level and have fun that way.

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**Author:** ![mahkra](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mahkra/32/15259_2.png) [@mahkra](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/mahkra)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/55 "2019-08-10T00:29:13Z")

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The game feels immensely different to me right now. A ton of things were changed all at once, so I have no idea what caused what. But one specific thing that I really don’t like I think is at least partially a consequence of the dodge changes – the tracking part, not the timing part. Enemies swarm over and around you a lot more aggressively, and dodging doesn’t create any space at all. Since there’s not really any spacing in combat, then once combat starts, you’re just constantly slogging through horde density until everything is dead. All of the slots fill up around you and then just stay filled for the whole fight, which makes for a monotonous experience. Pretty much the only consistent way to create space is to use a crowd control weapon, but I generally find the attack patterns on those weapons a bit boring, and they generally have poorer movement stats (as they should) than lighter, faster, more single-target-focused weapons.

This is extremely noticeable when you’re alone, as _all_ of the enemies are then aggroed on you. “So don’t split up from your team” one might say, but a) sometimes everyone else is dead and b) I actually think it’s a lot more fun to play independently but together than to play in formation as a team. Cohesive team play just makes me feel like a cog in a machine, like I’m not even making my own decisions any more. Might as well just play with bots.

All of that is to say the pacing of the moment-to-moment gameplay feels off to me, in a very visceral way, and it’s just not fun. I feel like everything that was great about Vermintide 2 just kinda got tossed out the window and I’m just playing Vermintide 1 with more varied skins on the enemies, and more enemy density.

And again, this is not about difficulty. It’s about the game _not being fun any more_. I’m capable of succeeding in Legend 2.0. I was also clearing Cata maps in beta 2, but I don’t have WoM so have not tried it in the current iteration of the game. But It feels like a chore to play, where it used to be a joy to play.

I don’t think this is actually constructive, though. It’s not like you have any influence over Fatshark and can convince them to stop trying to make Vermintide 2 feel like Vermintide 1.

EDIT: You asked for three things, and I arguably only gave one. So if you really want more:  
#2 - the level cap increase is just pointless and offensive. It accomplishes nothing because the game was re-tuned to that higher hero power cap, so it’s basically just removing levels from all of our characters and making us re-unlock talents and hero power that we already had. There is no excuse for that kind of BS.  
#3 - the stagger talents are dumb. They should just be a property of the weapon, because there’s basically a “right” talent to select depending on which weapon you’re using. Much like how the temp health row of talents works. Either you picked the “right” talent for your weapon, or you’re just playing with a gimped character. It’s not a decision where you’re picking something that you think best fits your playstyle.  
#4 - the talent overhaul was unnecessary, and I don’t like most of the changes. It feels like each class is being pushed more heavily than before into a specific style of play.

And as for how to fix? Honestly, I wish I could just roll back and opt out of 2.0. There is nothing in it that I prefer to the old version of the game. There’s some stuff that is different that I’m sure I’d be fine with after getting used to it, but nothing about it feels like an improvement to me.

EDIT2: On reflection, shields having better mobility & being able to block unblockable attacks is an improvement. But that’s all I can think of.

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**Author:** ![Voidq](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/voidq/32/20522_2.png) [@Voidq](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Voidq)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/56 "2019-08-10T03:03:50Z")

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> [@mahkra](#):
>
> dodge changes

Dodging still works just fine (even with 160+ ping) and is still very reliable. Previously, the i-frame lingered just enough to literally make you invincible as long as you kept dodging around the horde and not away from it (no running attacks, literal godmode, removed all difficulty and turned every horde into a harmless pile of garbage).

> [@mahkra](#):
>
> Enemies swarm over and around you a lot more aggressively, and dodging doesn’t create any space at all. Since there’s not really any spacing in combat

This is nothing new. Yes enemies might be slightly more aggressive but you counter that the exact same way you did before. Position yourself properly, use push to control the horde and create space. With your back towards a wall you only have to worry about the frontal 180° which is infinitely easier and safer and even with a low CC 1handed weapon you can push your way through moderate density just fine. A wall (or terrain), NOT a corner.

> [@mahkra](#):
>
> I actually think it’s a lot more fun to play independently but together

You can still do that 80% of the time. I still do that, everyone does. The big difference is that decent players are aware of where their teammates are and will stick together when needed. Bad players will panic and run in different directions and die alone in the middle of nowhere whenever overwhelmed. But again, there’s nothing new or different about this.

> [@mahkra](#):
>
> I don’t think this is actually constructive, though. It’s not like you have any influence over Fatshark and can convince them to stop trying to make Vermintide 2 feel like Vermintide 1.

That’s a bad thing? You come up with a product, said product is successfull and an audience forms around it. Plain common sense dictates that yes maybe you should try new things with product 2.0 but first and foremost you have to serve the already established audience OR you should give it a different name and market it as something else. People liked 1.0 for multitude of reasons and expect those to be present in 2.0, naturally. Most devs get this, some don’t (just look at DoW3).

> [@mahkra](#):
>
> #2 - the level cap increase is just pointless

That is a progression issue, not combat mechanics. And I agree.

> [@mahkra](#):
>
> #3 - the stagger talents are dumb. They should just be a property of the weapon, because there’s basically a “right” talent to select depending on which weapon you’re using.

You can say the exact same thing about every single other talent. I pick all the other talents depending on my weapon(s) and/or the rest of my team comp and/or specific content like FoW. Your “build” is a combination of all those choices and not some universal nobrainer talent build that will work with everything - that would make the whole system pointless to begin with and you could just turn those talents into default passives of the career…

> [@mahkra](#):
>
> #4 - the talent overhaul was unnecessary, and I don’t like most of the changes.

Name 3 careers that actually had some truly competitive and interesting talent choices before. Most of them had an obvious winner on each row making the whole system borderline pointless when majority of players ran pretty much the same builds.  
I can see some interesting choices now (still a lot of room for improvement) offering different playstyles. In fact, most careers now feel stronger. Either stronger or just as viable as before, perhaps for different reasons than before but viable nonetheless.  
How exactly would be one universal obvious-pick build more interesting and fun than a variety of different options and more specialized builds that keep the game and each career fresh and as such add more replayability? That makes no sense unless “fun” here means “easy, set it up once and forget about it” kind of deal which is what we had before more or less and which again, made the talent system kinda pointless.  
I’m willing to bet that 75% of all the old talents were completely ignored by an overwhelming majority of the playerbase. That’s bad design and they are clearly trying to improve it now.

**TL;DR:** Appreciate the effort but I still don’t know what is the ‘new’ that makes the combat as DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT as people claim.  
It basically boils down to this:

- People acquired some bad habits or simply haven’t learned the good ones (like basics of positioning and CC) in old Legend because one good player in a lobby was enough to carry the game.
- The exact same old bad habits are now being punished more severely but the exact same old good habits will still get you through Legend just fine and no, you absolutely DO NOT NEED a heavy CC weapon. Sure you will do more CC with it but that’s the whole point of it, different weapons will be better at different things.

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**Author:** ![mahkra](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mahkra/32/15259_2.png) [@mahkra](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/mahkra)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/57 "2019-08-10T03:11:44Z")

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Thank you for responding exactly the way I said that you would, by telling me that my perceptions of the game are wrong. I feel enlightened now.

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**Author:** ![Osrali](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/osrali/32/36100_2.png) [@Osrali](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Osrali)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/58 "2019-08-10T04:50:50Z")

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Perhaps ‘new’ is the wrong perspective to take when discussing potential issues with the changed combat, considering dodging was initially changed to address things they couldn’t fix like ice skating and hyperstacks. Now that dodging is harder again, problems like these, perceived or otherwise, have come back to the forefront with enemies getting tougher to stress the concerns and it’s pushing players into hypothetical snowballing situations they can’t get out of - atop just taking longer than usual, when rounds were already skirting on the 30-minute mark depending on how much the AI director hated you.

The problem with a lot of this back and forth is that it really is mostly anecdotal, and it’s far too early for either side to be making conclusions as far as i’m concerned. I can’t believe i’m saying this but unless it’s actually fixing technical issues like audio cues not playing or facespawn patrols or making beastmen more easily distinguishable, Fatshark should probably cool their heels on making any further changes to the system and letting things settle for at least a week or two. Feedback will be easier to parse once people have fully leveled(again. Thanks, Fatshark) and actually adjusted, and if it’s still not fun for people at that point maybe there is actually something to all the beta discussions we’re not allowed to see anymore.

The most recent patch was an awkward one, because I feel like now people who are ready to move on from legend in the future are going to have a much wider gap to hurdle than any of the difficulties prior, seemingly for no reason. I haven’t gotten to experience much of it, but if it’s actually potentially even easier than it used to be pre-WoM then it just exacerbates the problem. Suddenly we’re going to need a sixth difficulty between legend and cata just so people have proper stepping stones up. This is all speculative, though - maybe it won’t be that bad once the dust has finally settled.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![marcellus48k](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/marcellus48k/32/23701_2.png) [@marcellus48k](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/marcellus48k)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2019, 9:07am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/59 "2019-08-10T09:07:51Z")

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For me, the worst in the new legend is the silly spawning. From nowhere, in your back and with no sound. Thats feel the game random as a lottery and no matter yours skills anymore.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![souI23](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/soui23/32/25193_2.png) [@souI23](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/souI23)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2019, 10:15am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/vermintide-is-painful-and-frustrating/34767/60 "2019-08-10T10:15:43Z")

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Totally true.

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