Unchained - Slight adjustments to an already excellent iteration

EDIT: 25.07.2020 - The OP will be rather lengthy now but I think it makes sense to leave the old part for reading as well, as most of this still counts. I just want to adjust some minor things.

I’ve read recently a lot of very weird suggestions for Unchained. Realistically, there will nothing happen on them for three reasons. First, they need a lot of effort to be invested. We know this will not happen. Second, parts of them want to make Unchained a very boring brawler like Zealot or Slayer. This would take away all her unique points and identity, if people want to play Slayer they can pick slayer. And many suggestions seem to be based more on the rule of cool instead of actual balance and interesting, unique and fun gameplay. Third, there is no need to:

  • Unchained is probably one of the, if not the most unique career in the whole game with unprecended tankiness, an own defense mechanic and high flexibility. She is

    • a Vanguard/frontliner always right in the middle of the fight
    • her fighting style is a continuous mix between melee and range
    • a very flexible choice of her specific role
  • Unchained has an unique and defined identity, so to drastic changes would ruin this identity which can never be a good thing. Unchained is a career that focus on magically enhanced combat which can channel the winds of Aqshy to provide both an armour of flame that protects her and a mighty spell of fiery destruction. Or to paraphrase it, she can decide the tone of her flames. This is her thing, her gimmick, the one point (among others) which makes her unique, give her an identity and elevate her from Bright Wizard or Unchained. By nature, fire is destructive. However, Unchained’s talents allow her to modify the fire to her wishes to access different roles. Unchained has:

    • Offensive Flame: Increasing her destruction potential by choosing talents like Frenzied Flame or Fuel to the Fire
    • Defensive Flame: Increasing her already high defense capability by choosing talents like Burning Dregs or Enfeebling Flames. In the latter case it even brings a bonus to the whole team by near constantly providing an indirect 30 % damage reduction to nearby enemies. Only other careers which can do this are Mercenary (but he has to wait for the active skill while Unchained can do it constantly) and Foot Knight (but he is limited to short range while Unchained can also use the effect by casting magic to places away, helpful for protecting downed teammates).
    • Spreading Flame: Spreading her fire on the battlefield by choosing talents like Searing Grasp, Chain Reaction (IF it would actually do something …), or Bomb Balm by spreading the energy of her flame to her teammates providing health

So all in all the current Unchained (and partially in live version too) is strong, extremely unique with a very clear and defined identity. This said, there are still some things which could be adjusted. Most of these appear more often in the later some #20 posts and I have them mentioned before. I would like to add one more change on that today. With this in mind, these are the changes I would do if I could decide (summarized in the image and written out below):

  1. First change will be to switch the talent position of Burning Dregs and Chain Reaction. Reason is simple that Chain Reaction is not competitive in this row and never will be. Burning Dregs is competitive and the row more or less determines the fundament of Unchained by talents with a direct feelable impact defining her role as offensive, supportive or defensive. Additional benefits are to create a new synergy between Burning Dregs and Natural Talent as well as easing the accessibility for new players by making Burning Dregs available earlier. This way that have some kind of helping wheels until they get a better hang for Unchained. However, currently Burning Dregs still has a to-effective synergy with Bomb Balm which can be removed by making Burning Dregs not providing the level 30 talents benefits. This change is not necessary if Bomb Balm is removed, however personally I would recommand the change in any way as Burning Dregs primarily should be a defense tool to allow more slipping up and not some kind of power multiplier. Even after the change you could still easily dish out three overcharge bars. This playstlye will not be lost, but its effectiveness will be lessened.
  2. Second change will be in talent row 25 with Chain Reaction. And personally, I think Chain Reaction needs another change. Because I don’t see its purpose. Last tests didn’t show the talent causing damage. There is no actual chain reaction here. But I think there should be. Two choices are available: direct damage or dot. My choice would be DoT. Upon burning to death an enemy has a 50 % to explode causing a fire dot for surrounding enemies. This way the fire actually has a chance to create a chain reaction (values may have to be adjusted) and it would fit well in the category of Spreading Flame.
  3. Third change will be in talent row 30, the active skills. Aside from the overly effective synergy between Bomb Balm and Burning Dregs, I don’t think there is a need to change anything her. Currently, the talent row is near perfectly balanced with three uniquely different active skills each adressing one type of the previously mentioned flames (Flame Wave/Fire Aura - Defensive Flame, Fuel for the Fire - Offensive Flame, Spreading the Flame - Spreading Flame on teammates). There has to be some discussion from different viewpoints which should be adressed.
    First is the suggestion to add the Fire Aura effect as default to Living Bomb. This is a bad idea from two perspectives. Looking at it from balance side, we have first to check how strong the fire aura is. For this I made a little test:
    https://i.imgur.com/vAiOuRv.mp4
    In the video you can see that Fire Aura can kill all horde enemies (albeit at a slow pace). For comparison reasons I will show another video of Kaboom+Famished Flames with the same properties:
    https://i.imgur.com/0wwbRqL.mp4
    Yes, damage-wise Fire Aura is slightly stronger then Kaboom PLUS talent with Kaboom being much faster. Now imagine adding Fire Aura to Bomb Balm and you get a high damage active skill which also heals the team AND potentially protects it with Enfeebling Flames. Yes, it is as busted as it sounds. Now imagine adding Fire Aura to Fuel to the Fire with the increased explosion damage and increased DoT by the 25 % power boost. Basically, you have an active skill which does the same damage as Kaboom PLUS the damage of Kaboom with Famished Flames. And yes, here too with the potential protection effect of Enfeebling Flames. This too sounds as broken and busted as it is. And no, not even the increased active skill cooldown does justify this bonkerness. It is simply broken beyond repair and your first talent the old Fire Aura is completely worthless now and would need a complete rework. The whole balanced of the active skills would be ruined. It is a no-go.
    But wait, why not adjust the damage down for the other talents so we can still have the cool fire aura effect. Yes, we can balance this like this, however lets take a look from the second perspective: Identity. Currently, each active skill adresses one type of Unchaineds three types of flame. While Fire Aura DOES a lot of damage it is only in the vicinity of her, enemies have to come to her in difference to Kaboom which brings the fire to the enemy. Additionally, to the stronger stagger effect, the first second they will be pushed out of the zone. Fire Walk despite its damage is primarly still a defense talent with a great synergy with Enfeebling Flames. Fuel to the Fire is the offense Flame, it is self-explanatory. Bomb Balm is spreading the explosion energy over the teammates in form of THP. From an identity perspective, these talents are also balanced. So a change with the fire aura would ruin the active skills and is a bad idea.
    With this said, why do I still propose a change to Bomb Balm? Two reasons: First is the previously mentioned synergy of Bomb Balm and Burning Dregs. If Fatshark doesnt want to change the effect of Burning Dregs as suggested under point 1, it can still adress this problem (and yes, it is a problem leading to a very meta build) by changing Bomb Balm. Second reason is balance in a larger picture. THP in high availability is a problem as it allows to many slip-ups and sloppy play. It takes challenge out of the game. We already have Mercenary and Ranger Veteran providing THP (and I wouldnt mind both getting rid of the effect), so Unchained doesnt need it. And I would rather keep Enfeebling Flame here as supportive factor. So what would I suggest as alternative? Following Unchained’s identity and themes I would have to replace a Spreading Flame talent with a Spreading Flame talent. So let’s take this by the word:
    Spreading the Flame: Upon explosion teammates hit by Living Bomb will get a part of Sienna’s power. For 20 seconds all attacks deal Fire DoT. Fire Dot does twice the damage (only after explosion). Values may need to be adjusted.

So this is it. Three simple changes to make her from very good with slight elements of overpowered into very good and balanced with all talents fitting into her unique playstyle and identity.
Also, don’t touch the cooldown for Living Bomb. Her active skill is already one of the strongest in the game and she already plays with good reward vs extremely low risk, especially if you chose Burning Dregs. No reason to make it even simpler.


This is the old part, left for historic reasons.

Okay, so I did some first tests and there are some interesting things and some differently interesting things.

First off, I very recently did a feedback thread concerning Unchained (Career Discussion - Unchained) and I am glad to see that two of the changes I had in my mind, also crossed the mind of the developers. As it was literally yesterday I don’t think you took inspiration from there.

So let me start with discussing the changed talents:

As I said, very similar to what I had in my mind. Damage wise the DoT change does not much as it only comes at second 2 and 4 and most horde enemies are dead by that time. However, the increase burn time does synergize well with Enfeebling Flames which is the change I wanted to see. Also wanted to see an increase in pushing angle. I suggested 30 °, we got 80 % which is huge and has a light effect on dps. It has an activation trigger by doing one charged attack which is fine. I do find it odd though that the proc stays for all eternity until you actually push. Is that intended? Don’t think it is much of a problem, but it is … odd. Make it five seconds or ten and it would still be more than enough time.

Not tested yet, though I have to ask. Does it damage actually? Last patch it didn’t. And for all I care enemies can explode as much as they want, as long as they only stagger it is hardly worth the talent. But I have to look deeper into it. There might be something which I may have missed.

EDIT: So I tested the talent now. Aaaandd, I don’t get it, like … I don’t get it. What is the goal of this talent? The explosion does not cause damage it only staggers. And even the trigger itself is to rare. To cause an explosion, the enemies have to die by burning (not burning enemies have to die, difference). So even with 40 % probability you don’t see much explosions. I found only two weapons where it worked a bit - Firesword in melee and Conflagration in range. Which brings me back to the question? What is the goal? In range the stagger does not bring anything unless you like to make enemies dance. It slows down the horde a bit, but that can’t be it. In melee it is an additional stagger source but Firesword has plenty of stagger already, so it is kinda pointless. Maybe it is build-up for Enfeebling Flames. But once again, it is not needed in range and in melee you can have a better and more reliable result with Searing Grasp. I’m creative, you know? But … I don’t get it.

As I said in the patch note thread. I don’t think it will change much although the effect is huge with 50 % less overcharge generated. On Cataclysm the effect is mostly negligible unless we are talking about chip damage. So it is something the community asked for and will give people who want it and additional safety net. Overall, an ok change.

EDIT: To keep it a bit more clean, I will restructure the whole paragraph. The baseline discussion for this talent can be seen below. With this talent you exchange health for cooldown reduction. However, in it current form the exchange is to favourable and you can overcharge up to four times in one minute without real consequences. Overcharging - even with this talent - still should be punishing. I really would like to see the exchange rate increase to something like 5-6 % of her health for 10 % cooldown. However, there are other ways which should be priorized which could lead to a less start increase. As such I propose the following suggestions for this talent:

  1. Exchange positions of Burning Dregs and Chain Reaction - This change would really really help so much. Currently you have the choice between being egoistic or being a teamplayer for the level 25 talents. Such choices have always been poor. By placing Burning Dregs in the level 10 row, players will have to make a more painful decision (as it should be) - giving up offense capability or defense capability. Also Burning Dregs becomes available earlier for new players. Thematically, it could be argued as well by level 10 being the primarly melee focused talent row and level 25 being the magic/fire focused talent row. Also Level 10 basically dictates the direction of your build - Offense, Defense or Support. It fits thematically.
  2. After reaching full active skill bar Living Bomb will trigger automatically, however without the benefits chosen for the level 30 talents: This is an also very close to a “have-to change”. Currently Burning Dregs synergizes to well with Bomb Balm, you don’t feel punished for overcharging. The talent should be a safety-net, nothing more.
  3. Even after this I would STILL increase the exchange rate. 6 % might be to much in this case. I consider 5 % health still a fair compromise. But under the assumption that both change 1 and 2 are implemented an exchange rate of 4 % health for 10 % cooldown might be enough. Would have to be tested.

Again developers had similar thoughts to me. The talent needs more stagger. BUT this is a very odd kind of stagger. The good thing, I can stagger monster bosses (and maybe even Lords). The odd thing, I can’t stagger Chaos Warrior Overhead attacks as I could with the same setup with the old Fuel to the Fire. And frankly, without that the talent is useless as monsters are only there one or twice per run. Give the talent additional stagger power so that it can stagger Chaos Warriors. Otherwise, the talent will not picked once again. I have to test if it can free people from disablers. That would be another plus but even then, I would like to have the change proposed below.

I still haven’t made up my mind here. I do like the visuals and I do like the fabulous synergy with Enfeebling Flames once again and that this seems to be the talent for the melee build. However, the damage is not really higher as before, so the only thing it got was a slightly better synergy with Enfeebling Flames which makes it an offense and defense talent at the same time. You might consider slightly increasing the damage though. However, …

The active talent reworks seem odd to me. You sacrificed Fuel to the Fire and gave us two talents which are both a slight DOWNGRADE of that talent. If I would go by gameplay changes I would have to think that you considered the old Fuel to the Fire as to strong! If that is the case, okay then let it be like it is. If you wanted better alternatives though, I will make the same suggestion as in my own thread:

  • Give me back the old Fuel to the Fire
  • ADD the Fire Ring to Flame Wave

Like this you have three choices.

  • THP Gain/Light Damage/Light Stagger
  • Strong Stagger against Elites/Good Damage by skill/Temporary power increase
  • Strong Stagger against Monster/Good Damage by skill/Temporary Defense increase if chosen Enfeebling Flames

Overall, I like that you increased the synergy with Enfeebling Flames which makes her defense and support characteristics so much better. This increased her survivability already by far. You also added additional safety nets which is what the community requested. Numb to Pain is an okay change, however the exchange rate for Burning Dregs should be reconsidered. The reworks to the active skill while thematically separated are lacking both though as the stagger does not stagger what is most important and the damage for the new Fuel to the Fire is not an upgrade to the old one. I would really like for you to consider the changes I mentioned. And if you haven’t done yet, read the thread i linked above. I think we are on the same page on how she should perform and what her role is.

EDIT: Random Site Note - I really like the “Inferno Reif” cosmetic. Has it been added with last Lohner’s Emporium Patch?

8 Likes

Yeah, sounds quite reasonable…

I disagree on that.
Burning 30% HP for a full ult is unreasonable amount of tankiness, I do agree (come ot think of it, you can survive 2-3 explosions in a controlled environment)
But your suggestion sounds a bit much to me. 7,5%HPx10%Ult is 75% of your health, and I think it would be a bit too much.
6% - probably still OP. 6,5% - really strong, but more reasonable. 7% - I can get behind. 7,5% - I, personally, don’t agree.

P.S.
After thinking a little bit more, I am starting to reconsider my choice of words…
With some math, and remembering that damage taken gives ult charge, I am starting to think, that your suggestion is actually more reasonable that I expected… I just got very spooked by 2,5x multiplication in the sacrificed health percentage.

Ok I’ve played several rounds with UC now with all weapons and only NOT used the conflag staff.

I’m really really missing Fuel for the Fire now. It was really good at adding a wide range of uses and although not really giving a long enough time (10 seconds) of buffed power for such a long cooldown it really had some varied uses I’m missing. Could get you out of a bit of trouble by buffing the power so you could finish off anything staggered by your Bomb. It could mean you had a way of mitigating losing your overcharge damage/speed stacks via the power buff and… my favourite… as the power buffs transferred to ranged too it allowed you to go completely bonkers with you staff with buffed power and an empty overcharge bar. Hammering a boss with Fireball Staff after popping Fuel for Fire in a horde provided a massive potential for burst damage and pimped you back up to red overcharge really quick.

Bomb balm needs to stay the same I think. It has some value and it probably good for people who are getting used to her and need a bit of a panic button.

Fuel for the Fire needs to be there instead of the Fire Ring Aura. Although the Fire ring might feel nice with Enfeebling flames - and it has saved me from being downed at least once - it’s 2 talents used up for one defensive buff I think.

And the Massive Stagger should be renamed to Quite Large Stagger but not really big enough. I think the stagger should flatten almost everything, or at least stop a CW overhead. Make the stagger MASSIVE to give it real value.

I’m not sure I like the health into Overharge Talent at all. I’d much prefer something like a Discharge which basically gives Sienna a “free hit” and shorts out some of her Overcharge into the nearest Enemy when she gets pushed into overcharge. Just enough to buy her time to get out of the gas cloud/Fire/Gunner or buy time to reposition. This could cause HP damage too and if you’re low HP and high overcharge and it goes off you could still die from it but, it’s the safety net some people have been looking for. If it’s restricted how often it triggers that could be quite good.

TL;DR - Fuel for the Fire needs to come back, and as @Adelion says, merge the Fire Circle into Flame Wave.

2 Likes

Well, there was no hard math behind, more a feeling of gut. But looking at it deeper I think the numbers are justified (edit: I made a calculation error, my goal was 75 Hp for full bar recovery, but I made that 75 %). The next part is not directed at you, more a general analysis mainly for Fatshark.

Unchained has 150 Hp. The maximum she can lose by the talent Burning Dregs are 30 % which equals 45 Hitpoints. Realistically she has at least 10 %. Even if you activate the talent on purpose by overcharching your staff again and again you will have about 5 % active skill bar before the talent triggers. So you actually lose at best 40 Hp by this talent.
Why is this interesting? Because like I said you can overcharge on purpose and trigger Bomb Balm which means you lose 10 Hitpoints in exchange for your team gaining 90 hitpoints. And you can do this several times before Unchained is to low on health. This is absolutely exploitable and has NOTHNG to do with skill ceiling or skill based gaming.

So what would be the solution here? Let us take a conservative approach and say in average the talent will trigger with an active skill bar at 50 %. This means you have to exchange 15 % of your hp which equals 22.5 hitpoints. At the very least Unchained should however lose the 30 thp she can get by Bomb Balm in average which would result in an increase of the exchange rate from currently 3 % to (3 % / 22.5 * 30) = 4 % as the absolute minimum value.

However, this would still be very strong and there would be rarely situations the talent could not trigger. I think half her health for a full active skill bar recovers seems fair (or for the matter of course a fourth of her health bar which equals 37,5 hp).

  • So I would - after doing actual math - suggest to increase the exchange rate for Burning Dregs to at least 5 %

(which is still kinda abusable by Bomb Balm).

2 Likes

Yes please.

I am 100% in favor of adding the entire fire ring functionality to Flame Wave, and restoring the old Fuel to the Fire. However, I’m still not convinced with the old Fuel to the Fire’s capacity. I think it really just needs a small or medium bump to its effect duration, to get a proper use out of it.

But yeah, I think Flame Wave and the fire ring are, individually, too weak to really pick. But combined, they can fit the theme of ‘really big and impactful explosion’ while not being too OP.

1 Like

So I tested this with creature spawner, and hitting marauders with 1 fireball then letting them burn to death seemed to yield MUCH less than 40% chance of explosion. Didn’t test extensively but I’d say it felt more like 10-20%, which is pretty pathetic for a light stagger with no damage or dot. If anyone else wants to do some testing I’d be interested if this can be corroborated or if I just got insanely wonky RNG.

IMO this talent should have a higher proc rate, and work on enemies dying by any means while burning. I’m on the fence as to whether it needs damage or a light dot as well, a weak but decently long lasting dot would be nice for further synergy with enfeebling flame, but that might step on searing grasp’s toes a little too much.

I agree it’s too short for the length of cooldown. I’m in favour of increasing the duration of the effect rather than upping the power personally.

Man, have you tried this? It looks absolutely insane. I’m going to go and blow myself up a bit XD

[edit] Very fast test with Fireballs Staff holding RMB and spamming LMB I got 45 shots off with 3 deliberate overcharges which took my health down to half a green bar without killing a single thing. Absolutely abusable mechanic and Lord knows what damage you could do with a beam staff shotgun or bolt staff spear. With bomb balm @Adelion you’re bang on the money, it’s 10hp lost for massive gains in damage output and team healing. Couple it with a merc THP ult and it’ll be completely batsh!t (if it isn’t already!).

[edit] test 2; In game the ONLY risk now is deliberately overcharging and getting hit in a horde while the animation for overcharge is running. Face tank plague monks and overcharge, stand in flames - no problem, headbutt a patrol to death - simple. This exploit completely removes any kind of caring about your overcharge bar - just rob all the healing and don’t take a tome. Add in the THP generated on stagger by the mace and it’s SOLO YOLO time. No one minds cos everyone else is also getting THP buff every minute.

2 Likes

You’re not account for the overheat damage in itself which is up to 50 damage. There’s the 3 damage ticks from the talent and then the 10 damage ticks from overheating that you always take which happen every 2 to 3 ticks of the talent. Also taking damage during overcharge is not efficient for building ult charge and will either get you killed or leave you with very little health. The minimum damage you can take from overcharging with the talent and a nearly empty ult bar (1m44s from my test) is 67 damage and you can take up to 77 damage before exploding so from an empty bar, you get 1 tick timespan to save yourself in such a scenario but also lose between 37-47 health or 27-37 with boon.

In details we can discuss this of course. Fuel to the Fire is already strong but if people say they want see a “slight” increase I wouldnt mind to much. Something like increasing from 10 s to 12 s would be okay. People, please consider that even 10 s are enough to fire several conflags, fireballs or shotgun blasts. I wouldn’t even mind one more stack up to 30 % power increase. However, only in very dire situations like you have to hit 10 or 15 enemies to trigger the last stack,

Overall, my primary goal is to get the old talent back and merge the two new ones. Unless Fatshark thought that the old talent was to strong this seems appropriate to me (and keep in mind that I am mostly in favour of keeping weapons and talents on the “weaker” side).

Thanks for the support

1 Like

No, I am accounting for it. This is not “only” a mathematical construct. This has been tested by @Argonaut14. And I have measured this as well. If you overcharge on purpose you take in the worst case 40-45 damage (EDIT: Okay, it might be a bit higher, so let’s say 50-60 worst case but I haven’t taken Shallya’s boon into consideration as well) . Worst case. This is simply not enough, especially when picking Bomb Balm.

Even when we take the case that you overcharge by being hit. Unchained has 50 % DR. Her health was never the problem. Unless you tank overhead elite attacks she will be at 50 % health or higher AFTER taking the hit. Which means she would lose (AFTER my proposed change) another 25 % of her health in average leaving her with still 30 - 75 hitpoints. Again AFTER my proposed change. The exchange rate at the moment is just too good to be true.

The picture changes slightly after picking up grimoires. But then again, I think after picking up two grimoires she shouldnt have a functioning safety net anymore, that is kinda absurd. So we could even discuss that we increase the exchange rate in such a manner that her average damage is equal to the max health with two grimoires (33 % without curse resistance). Then we would result at 6.6 % health for 10 % cooldown which is still a strong talent.

So yea, lower end would be 4 % (far to low in my opinion), higher end would be about 6,6 % (in my opinion fair), a compromise would be 5 % (still to low for my taste, but I would take it over not changing the exploitable mess we have right now).

One thing I want people to keep in mind about the health conversion talent, is that you’re never going to convert all the way to fill 100% of your bar.

I mean, that implies you just used your Ult, and you’re still immediately maxing your overcharge and exploding. That just doesn’t happen.
The worst you’ll actually get, is probably that the health to ult conversion will have to convert health to 70% of your ult bar or something. Like, in the worst realistic scenario. That means that you can sort of get away with increasing the health required for conversion.

However, also keep in mind that on top of health being converted to ult bar, being in the overcharge explosion animation also deals damage. This is probably what Adelion was finding that made the ‘health’ taken inconsistent: Exploding already deals some periodic damage before actually exploding and killing you. And I don’t think that’s a %, iirc that’s a static number, which means it hurts more the less health you have (grimoires, etc).

I haven’t given unchained a proper try yet (gave up after Burning Dregs didn’t trigger for the third time in a row cuz of a bug), but now that it’s fixed I’ll give another shot and give my actual thoughts on it. Just, again, consider those two things:

  • You will almost never actually have to convert a full bar of cooldown from health
  • On top of losing health from burning dregs converting health to ult, you also lose health just in general from being in the overcharge animation.
1 Like

That is one of the points that I emphasize, you usually are not on zero for the active skill bar.

This is something which I haven’t taken into consideration enough, so I did a simple test with Bomb Balm and Shallya’s Boon. As I recorded for the first time, I wasted a bit time at the beginning:

https://videobin.org/+1ajs/1gvm.html

Result is that I can easily overheat four times, which means four overcharge bars full of devastating fire magic and four times 30+ thp for your team mates. This is for my taste simply to much. One would think it gets slightly better if you overcharge by getting hit but then again you are not at zero for the cooldown but at the half or maybe even higher.

In my opinion Unchained was already pretty safe to play before the BBB. Now if you pick Burning Dregs you have close to zero risk. I once again iterate that an increase to 5 % health for 10 % cooldown exchange rate seems to be a fair compromise for the moment.

2 Likes

It’s not even working properly at the moment, 3% would mean you take 5.4 damage ticks but every time I slow down my clips, I only see a loss of 3 hp each tick. 5% would mean 9 hp each tick if it was properly implemented/described. We should take small steps to reduce this, 5-6 damage would be more reasonable. Also I see a lot of beam staff usage now that the shotgun cost less overcharge (it went from 4 shots to 9 shots per overcharge bar), dropping this down to 6-7 would be fine if they beam/blast got some sort of utility increase like decent cleave and dots/stacks not resetting on new targets.
EDIT: Health to cooldown actually is a percent but it’s not the percent that was shown in the patch notes. With a grim (126 max hp), you take 2-3 damage ticks instead of 3 but the overheating damage is still the 10 damage ticks.

I’ve been musing on this and think that actually it really does suit the Unchained Lore that she recklessly keeps overcharging with complete disregard for her own health - but it’s just too powerful coupled with Bomb Balm’s feeling of “not really damaging myself because I’ve got THP”. THP on stagger with dagger/Flame Sword fill your THP very fast and just increases how reckless you can be. This all fits well with Unchained.

But its not punishing enough.

It is going to be a very very tough balancing act to get it to be punishing enough to make it a real get-out-of-jail-free card, without making it a walking Nuke (which it is now - definitely on Fireball Staff I don’t even care about FF myself to bits). Removing Bomb Balm from the equation - as this is what trivialises it a bit more - might help as the current ticks of damage might be enough if you could only use it a handful of times a round, although pushing it to 4-5% seems fair. If there is a bug with the tick rate maybe this discussion is moot if we’re not seeing the right damage.

It still doesn’t solve the underlying issue of its perfect synergy with Bomb Balm though in counteracting the health loss. Maybe bomb balm need to go? I’ve always been a bit dubious about an explosion healing you…

1 Like

Numbers aside and if this is bugged or not is not important right now. Right now, you can overcharge four! times in about one minute without consequences. That is an indisputable fact (check the video I linked in post #13. That is simply to much. At best you should be allowed to overcharge twice without consequences, otherwise we get the same no risk, high reward dynamic we have with Zealot. And I want the Unchained to stay a good alternative as before and not a new meta.

With this said, I thought about it more and there are other changes which could make a start increase in health reduction less necessary. As @Argonaut14 said, currently you don’t feel punished for overcharging but even with the talent you should feel punished. As he explained playing recklessy kinda matches with Unchained but this should come with a trade-off. As such I propose the following changes concerning Burning Dregs (can also be read in the updated OP):

  1. After reaching full active skill bar, Living Bomb will trigger automatically. However, it does not activate with the chosen benefits of the level 30 talents. As such the synergy with Bomb Balm and also the other buffs is removed which is absolutely necessary in my opinion. Play recklessy and get less benefits, fair trade.
    Also, if this was the reason the level 30 talents got nerfed, we can get back the old Fuel to the Fire again.
  2. Exchange positions of Burning Dregs and Chain Reaction - This is also a change I would really really strongly suggest to make, it defeintely should be made. Currently you have the choice between being egoistic or being a teamplayer for the level 25 talents. Such choices have always been poor. By placing Burning Dregs in the level 10 row, players will have to make a more painful decision (as it should be) - giving up offense capability or defense capability. Also Burning Dregs becomes available earlier for new players. Thematically, it could be argued as well by level 10 being the primarly melee focused talent row and level 25 being the magic/fire focused talent row.
  3. Even after this I would STILL increase the exchange rate. 6 % might be to much in this case. I consider 5 % health still a fair compromise. But under the assumption that both change 1 and 2 are implemented an exchange rate of 4 % health for 10 % cooldown might be enough. Would have to be tested.

With these changes you have the choice to play Unchained as reckless, exploding maniac with lower power though or you play her as a powerful magician but with more need for fine-tuning. Overall, Unchained gets more interesting this way.

Burning dregs just depends on how the values are balanced. The talent is a good change i think personally, even if it takes half my max hp for an ult or if there is a cooldown on it, i will probably still use it. The fact that it’s not rng anymore makes me happy.

Okay, that is the dedicated thread :stuck_out_tongue: I am not sure of how much you have read from the text above. But right now you can easily overcharge four times and still be standing. This mean four times nuke magic full bar and four times active skill benefits for you and the team.

As such I would really like to see the changes I mentioned in post #16 being implemented. The more I think about, the more I want to see change #2 definetely implemented, and change #1 as second must have. After doing these two changes the values possibly don’t need that much fine-tuning anymore. 4 % might be enough after all.

But switching Burning Dregs and Chain Reaction would be a really interesting change as it forces the players to a more painful decision. And talent 10 would basically be the decision point if you want to have an offense, support or defense build. It fits thematically.

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I have read your suggestions.

I don’t mind your suggestions as they still allow for one ‘f&ck up’. If i had to choose one of the 3 i would choose the number 1. Just clearing overcharge for a certain hp cost (more then bomb balm can give) with no ult benefits (like temphp) is fine for me, they could even add a cooldown to it and i would still like it. It wouldn’t remove much skill as you get punished in terms of hp, and having only the ability to blow up once would just make it so you can actually use your ult without gimping yourself for 2 minutes or playing more carefull then a waystalker with nb, and it would still punish bad players who just take damage recklessly, it’s not like a zealot passive where you literally have no downside (no low hp isn’t a downside, as you cleave 5 enemies and your back to full)

Actually i would even add a cooldown to your number 1 suggestion as otherwise it could be abused with temp hp i think, just thinking out loud.

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I considered a cooldown but decided against for two reasons. First of, cooldowns are always kinda uninspired. Second, I wasn’t sure if the game would be able to differentiate not triggering the talent if your active skill bar is already full.

All in all, I would also consider that the talent should allow you the occasional slip-up, maybe even twice. But the more it allows you to slip-up, the more power you should have to sacrifice for it. That is why I see the three suggestions not as alternatives but as do them all (although I would be plenty happy if just #1 and #2 both would be implemented). You would be unkillable with Burning Dregs but you had to give up part of your offense power for it.

Thanks for the feedback.

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