Toning down the Huntsman Rework

I’ve never really paid much attention to Huntsman before since it is my absolute least favourite class in the game (I suck at aiming for heads). Giving this reworked Huntsman a try was ridiculous and kinda fun, but definitely not in line with the rest of the classes.

Remember pre-nerfed Heat Sink on Pyromancer with a Bolt/Beam Staff? Yeah, that’s what this reminds me of.

These won’t fix this rework, but here’s a few ideas and suggestions:

  • Sure Shot should be consumed upon hit AND upon missing. Right now, missing a shot will let you keep stacks of Sure Shot. You can currently stack 10 of them and even have them all back in an instant with the Reset talent, there’s no need for this safety net.

  • Reduce max stacks of Sure Shot. Having 10 (or 20 with Reset) free shots is pretty bonkers. Take into consideration Deep Pockets, the ammo buffs on ranged weapons, and the innate Conservative Shooter… I think it’s all too much. I think this is what really reminds me of Pyromancers abusing the f*ck out of Heat Sink. It’s too bloated, reducing the stacks by around 30-50% would probably be better. Even then, I doubt we’d still run out of ammo.

  • Let go of Deep Pockets. Huntsman, in its current state, can never run out of ammo. Sure Shot, an innate Conservative Shooter as passive, and two (four if you count Fast Track and Reset) talents that allows you to regenerate shots really makes Deep Pockets redundant. So… might as well?

  • Speaking of which, if they’re insistent on keeping the Huntsman in this reworked state, at the very least get rid of most talents that gives you free shots or ammo regen. Let players play around Huntsman’s passive if they want, but supplementing ammo retrieval when he’s already effortlessly good with it, it’s just overkill.

  • Hunter’s Prowl consumes ammo. On top of not consuming ammo while in ult, you’re also regaining ammo through Sure Shot, innate Conservative Ammo, and Reset. Well, if you’re actually consuming any ammo at all. This effect on Hunter’s Prowl is pretty redundant right now.

  • Reduce the effectiveness of Reset talent. But considering this talent pretty much scales from the number of max stacks, it should be relatively untouched if they’re nerfing Sure Shot’s max stacks.

  • Sure Shot increased distance required per stack, doing X reduces remaining distance required. Basically, it will take you longer to “naturally” gain stacks, but just like the career skill recharge mechanic, doing things such as hitting/killing enemies nets you faster progress in getting a stack. So instead of being completely passive, there’s a more active component in gaining them.

    • Honestly, I don’t even know if I like this distance requirement in place of a cooldown as a mechanic. But if I had to guess, putting Sure Shot on a timer instead of its current restriction would make it even stronger.

Just some thoughts. I’m not a great Huntsman player or even well-versed with this class at all, I only played him about 4 times in the past 2 hours (2 of them with Blunderbuss) for this entire Beta. But that’s enough time to really remind of the (not so) good old times when I’d be pulling out my melee weapon only for THP and nothing else as a Pyromancer. Regardless, if someone disagrees with any of these ideas, I don’t have any hill to die on. As Saltzpyre would say, “I yield to your experience.”

I still commend FS trying to shake things up though. I mean, I can’t say yet if this rework is gonna be good, but definitely interesting. It reminds me of when they turned Battle Wizard from literally the worst class in the game to one of the strongest. I wish the best for Huntsman mains.

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It seems to me that a lot of your grief has to do with Huntsman being self-sufficient with ammo, but is it really that bad if Huntsman can’t run out of ammo?

It’s quite hard to run out of ammo on BH and WS as well (basically impossible on WS), Sienna has infinite ammo (duh), and RV… Well, I’d argue RV needs a look at anyway. I don’t think it’s that bad that a class that is purely ranged focused has a huge supply of ammo.

Basically, I don’t think ammo is the issue with Huntsman right now, nor do I think he’s as busted as people make him out to be. Yes, he needs to be toned down a bit, but from playing him quite a bit today I feel like the balance isn’t too far off (except on Blunderbuss).

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It’s not even a grievance, I had a f*cking blast playing it, which I wasn’t expecting because as I already mentioned, I don’t like using Huntsman. But because of how easy it is to put out tons of damage while sacrificing absolutely nothing, it just doesn’t feel right. At least I’m actively keeping/regaining ammo with BH and WS by doing things in particular moments (also, my ammo actually goes down).

So, it’s more of a one-two punch of having infinite ammo sustain + perpetual headshot damage that can be amplified by properties/traits/talents. I want this powerful version of Huntsman to exist in some form, but not in its current state.

Or… yeah, maybe they’ll just have to look at how Blunderbuss interacts with this rework.

Meh, doesn’t really make a difference at the end of the day to me. None of the ammo sustaining mechanics in either of those classes is particularly difficult to pull off.

As I said, I don’t think the ammo is the issue here. I agree there are some issues with power level though, but it’s mostly with Blunderbuss. The Handgun feels fine power level wise, and I can’t attest to the others but I suspect they will also be rather fine.

If you dislike the ammo sustainment because it feels like you need less skill to sustain ammo with Huntsman now, or that it makes him more spammy, I feel you. To me, that’s not an issue, because like you, I didn’t like playing Huntsman before this rework anyway, and I don’t feel like that’s what’s causing any kind of imbalance in the power level.

You keep saying this, but what exactly do you think is the problem with Huntsman if it’s not his infinite ammo sustain and perpetual headshot damage?

The biggest problem right now is the ease with which Blunderbuss takes care of Specials, CWs, and Bosses. Blunderbuss should be good at dispatching Elites and Hordes, but right now it’s really good at everything with little drawback.

Like I said, I don’t think Huntsman is actually busted with weapons that aren’t Blunderbuss. He might do a little too much damage with Sure Shot, but I haven’t done any actual testing, only play tests which felt fine with Handgun.

I think the infinite ammo and easy headshot damage is a problem of class identity, not of balance.

Its the fact that it used to take a great deal of skill to maintain ammo. If you could land your headshots you could sustain ammo all match long, but if you got caught out and had to spam something down you ended up scrounging about.

It was interesting gameplay.

Now you may as well not have an ammo counter, and you dont need to aim even half as much.

It has stripped his identity away as a highly aim dependent career.

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I agree. As I said, the ammo is a an issue of class identity, not of balance.

I totally disagree… Huntsman is finally balanced and strong as BH and WS.

One stack every 50 meters is much weaker than Blessed Shot every 6 seconds or Bloodshot every melee kill.

The real buff are those 10 stacks on ult… but it’s what an ult should do: be useful. While, before, it was so much clunky and so easily wasted.

I love the current balance: normally BH and WS are still stronger than HS… but HS becomes stronger when he uses his ult. As it should be.

Moreover we have to consider two things:

  • in order to have stacks on ult, you must give up the invisiblity.

  • stacks just give headshots… they aren’t a “”“real”"" buff. If you are skilled (and lucky) enough, you can obtain the same result even without stacks… it’s enough to aim to heads… And this is the next point:

    • why must Huntsman need a so high skill level while, stronger (or, at most, equally strong) careers like BH and WS, can be played blinded?

    • why should I be forced to headshots while, the game, sometimes doesn’t let you to score them (bosses that show you their back, bugged hitbox, unpredictable movment, etc etc)?

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huntsman is fun now. i would rather not have him nerfed to be worse than the alternatives

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Huntsman was fun before this too. It was also pretty much the only viable shotgun build in the game anymore (at least the one I had any fun with), so I hope it being way overtuned right now doesn’t result in it getting made unusable in the near future.

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I think they should go even harder on reducing the Sure Shot max stacks down to something more realistic like 3 max stacks. That way you will still have to sometimes try to get headshots but can still benefit from the auto headshots when needed. Instead of reduced distances traveled to gain Sure Shot, a talent could double the max stacks to 6.

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Slightly off topic…when you have sure shot stacks and conservative shooter as well as Huntsman passive should you get 2 ammo back w/bodyshot?
I did a test run last night and was not getting ammo back.

You cant just use them when you need them. They are just there and get consumed. Didnt need that stack to kill the eshin? Well. Its gone now. 50 Steps are also not a short distance, which would fill those stacks in a quick manner.

There are already Talents that offer range power in much easier and more available ways. Blood Shot is easy to trigger in melee, which is the situation you only have split seconds to snipe something. If you are not in melee, you might aswell take the extra time and hit heads, or just take the second shot.

The only way to get stacks when you want them is via taking a Talent in the last row, that could also be one that makes you invisible for the whole duration.

A hardcap that just wastes whatever stacks you didnt use before activating the Reset Talent would be an easy first fix to tone it down a bit, but in practice I didnt see myself getting more than three stacks at a time before I shot something again.

Huntsmans Ammo sustain always was rather good, but basically, anyone can run Conservative and hardly ever run out of ammo between boxes. The overabundance isnt something special either. You need to be a wild west movie cowboy to run out with Waystalker, or BH.

Than ofcourse we could also talk about how both, BH and Waystalker, are granted Assassin in their stagger line, while Huntsman still only has access to Smiter.

Headshots don’t use up stacks

My big thing is I just hate how they said they’re going to give hunstman an identity because he’s lacking one, and they do it by… taking away his only identity? I always like hunstsman because he was a super high skill ceiling character that had to headshot to kill anything and they just gave him headshots for free. Plus his talents are now all screwy, why would I not take the 30% cdr and getting 10 free body shot headshots over anything else, especially since I can’t stay invis while shooting anymore. They took a hard character and made him super easy, which is just the wrong way to go about it. We already have a bunch of easy weapons/classes, we need more stuff that encourages the harder things.

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