To-do list before you scream and complain

You’re a very optimistic person, I see.

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I still have yet to see a single actual example. Everyone is just posting “oh my everything sucks, everything has changed so much and for the worse” generalized complaints…

Which career feels weak? Everything I’ve touched (after reviewing new talents and adjusting builds) felt even stronger than before WoM or at the very least just as viable.

What’s that MAJOR change to the core gameplay loop? I’m literally doing the exact same moves more or less, only difference being that dodge spam can be a bit less forgiving and not a complete Godmode anymore and that specials are more of a threat which they should be anyway instead of being caged during other encounters and only providing a shooting competition in between hordes.

Yes I’m not a big fan of the instant drop during Slayer’s jump.
Yes banner spam paired with their knockback can result in an unfair wipe sometimes.
Tweaks can be done.

On the other hand, all Saltzpyre’s careers are very strong now, Sienna is an absolute unit, Merc and FK are both unstoppable machines and Bardin is still perfectly viable (Slayer) , IB with flamethrower is completely busted OP and Ranger can still do a lot of work in capable hands, Elf… what Elf?

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Generally am. I love this game enough that I looked past the mistakes of VT1, past the mistakes of VT2’s launch, I looked past Bogenhafen, the mis-matched development version debacle, the endlessly unfixed bugs, the terrible decisions regarding out-of-combat systems like Deeds and crafting, the dropped release schedule, the content droughts, the terrible friendly AI that require mods to get functioning to an acceptable level, the bad decisions involving mods, the lack of dedicated servers and mod tools, the initial bad ideas of the last beta, and even the fact that I never got the FS socks I won in a contest.

That’s how much I enjoyed the core gameplay. Now they’ve effed that up, to almost everyone’s annoyance, and I am gonna step away. I will be back, to at least peek in and see if they’ve fixed it.

@Voidq Don’t be obtuse. You know exactly what the issue is, and there are a million threads enumerating it here ad nauseum. If you like the stagger changes and all that crap, bully for you. A very large segment of the community don’t, and it’s not whining to call out what was called out in for the entirety of a month-long beta.

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Ok so shields having an actual role and hordes not being a complete joke that literally any career with any weapon could solo is a major problem now, got it.

Team composition being a thing in a game that is marketed as a challenging COOP game is also a major issue then, which makes just as much sense.

Still not a single solid example or a logical argument as to what is oh so much different and so much worse now but meh. I wonder which weapon requires multiple extra hits now compared to pre-WoM because that’s what all the “spongy” posts suggest.

I think that was enough forum logic for me for the next month or so.
o7

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Did you play this game when it first came out? How did it feel then? Similar maybe? How did it feel after you leveled and learned the mechanics? Any different from when you first started?

Cheers,

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@alphaxdx
Actually nope, if you remember what it was at the beginning, there was a certain talent called “2THP on kill”, on any kill, melee of ranged, on any shіtty clanrat or w/e. Yes, I used -60% block cost reduction+ parry on most weapons coz dodge was very unreliable, but push and general stagger was still better, and you could easely build THP buffer using ranged weapon as well as melee.

And let’s see what 2.0 brings to us:

  1. Nerf to stagger/push power, which makes pushes with non-shielded weapons just a stamina waste, unless you are surrounded and need a way out, but pushing horde for a better control of the situation is useless.

  2. Dodge nerf, and I agree, it’s now pretty similar to [launch - BBB] period.

  3. This “genuine” idea of another rat almost immediately taking the place of his comrade (and almost immediately start charging “running attack” in your face) who’ve been pushed away by shield bash/push/general stagger.

  4. Overall THP nerf. That’s what I like FS for, nothing said about it in patch notes, and after almost 2 days of 2.0 it’s still unclear if it was intended of just coders fuсked up again. And I’m not only saying about totally broken (and in fact useless) “THP on cleave”, THP talents where nerfed all across the board, you see it very clear with a pretty consistent “THP on crit/HS” and “Numeric UI” on, but the problem is, all “THP talents” got nerfed significantly, and it seems like THP decay now starts a lot sooner, so building THP buffer is now a lot more difficult.

So what I wanna say, none of changes that lead to the current state of the game is crucial by itself, at the same time combining them all together changes game pace drastically, and not in a good way. Game is not unmanageable, but it lost it’s fast combat feeling, but you know what? It’s not a VT1 where you had a lot less enemies overall, and in a game where you have hundreds of foes running at you in the same time such slow pace feels unnatural and weird, especially comparing to what it was. And as I said earlier, Onslaught+Deathwish on a previous patch was not easy at all, it was a lot harder then current legend and, as I feel, Cata, but overall game pace was a lot better then it is now.

@Voidq, I think now you’ve got an answer what exactly is bad, IMO ofc, and not “blah-blah about game became bad”.

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That’s simply not true and plain wrong. Pushing is still the best use of stamina, even more so than before. Pushing was effective and rendered encounters much safer for everyone before and having a proper melee frontline is even more important now. Said this during the stupid ranged meta and it simply just became more obvious now.

You can still get away with dodge dancing around the horde, easily. It simply just requires a bit of timing now instead of mindless spam.

Nothing is charging running attacks if you are positioning yourself properly and making a good use of pushing. Pretty much nothing has changed here. NOT dodging backwards from enemies is basic knowledge and was always the case ever since launch.

THP on cleave might need some tweaking but that’s about it. All the other THP talents are still perfectly viable, Zealot got a new THP talent, we now have another class that can give THP to teammates (UC) + we still have Merc. If you are so dependent on constant stream of THP then build for it properly.

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I just wanna ask you, why talent saying in gives you 2 THP on crit/HS and 4 on critical HS gives you less then 2/4 THP (God bless Numeric UI), regardless of what tooltip says? Not even mentioning that before 2.0 when you had crit with a slash attacking multiple enemies you had 2 THP per each foe you’ve hit with a critical hit, now you only gain it once, no matter how many foes hit.

But well, who am I to know something, it’s you, The One who knows better then anybody.

So what? THP was way too easy to get before and taking hits didn’t mean anything compared to VT1 because 3 seconds later you got all the HP back just for spamming left click…

You still get more than enough THP to get by. If you are taking so many hits that you need a constant supply of THP then you are clearly not ready for that difficulty.
This isn’t a game based around mindless trading of hits with your enemy and winning that exchange.
Try dodging, it still works just fine, trust me.

On kill THP talents are even better now, since the enemy HP was raised and you get THP percentage wise, not flat.
This is the first time I ever used on-kill on pyro with crowbill.
This way you can vent from THP pre-lvl35.

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Pretty much.
I have yet to find a THP talent that would feel weak if paired with a weapon that makes sense with it.
Except the cleave ones obviously which are currently in a bad spot.

Nerf to THP acquisition is something we were asking for during the betas simply because healing supplies felt completely worthless in old Legend and I was skipping 90% of them unless I screwed up badly somehow. Hordes were just a giant free medkit for everyone and all it took was to spam left click to be back to full HP again.

Making enemy hits matter is a much better way of ramping up the difficulty than endlessly boosting the enemy numbers (which only hurts performance and effectively has a cap). If getting THP is too easy then any hit which doesn’t oneshot me means nothing because I can recover from it quickly and easily via THP.

Voidq, do you prefer the game in 2.0? Or does it feel just like it used to?
If you prefer it, then that must mean things are different, otherwise you would be indifferent.
And if things are different now, maybe some people don’t like the changes?

For me, I hate the combat now. It feels like Vermintide 1, where the way you’re “supposed” to play is basically just cluster up in a choke point and use high-cleave, high-stagger weapons for crowd control. The high-mobility gameplay that Vermintide 2 used to allow was the most fun I’ve had in video games in years, but the combat re-tuning seems specifically designed to punish that type of play, to encourage “teamwork”. But if teamwork means cluster with 3 other players the whole map, then why am I even playing with other people? Might as well just use bots if everyone’s going to be doing the same thing all map. It doesn’t feel dynamic at all.

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It feels VERY similar to what it was before WoM. 90% of the time I’m using the same playstyle I did before. From everything I’ve seen since VT2 launch the main reasons I saw people wipe were either lack of melee frontline (stagger) or playing too passively which resulted in the team getting overwhelmed by enemy density. Having at least one more competent player on the team made it always feel like a completely different game compared to carrying 3 bad players and it was also infinitely easier… why? Because competent players would help control the horde properly instead of simply spamming left click, their ranged weapon or blocking too much and playing too passively. If you have just 2 players who stick together and understand melee stagger the enemy horde becomes much less of a threat. This was 100% true before WoM and it’s even more important now due to the stagger dmg bonuses.

Look around, take notice of where your teammates are, push enemies who are getting too sassy and get in as much damage as possible before they recover. This is definitely a more engaging playstyle than breaking my left click and dodging sideways without even looking. (basically what Legend used to be, with any career and any weapon)

The main difference is that we now have more build variety (new talents) and some actual choices instead of one nobrainer build for most careers, that’s a good thing.

If different weapons don’t have different roles then most weapons are never going to be used over a few outliers that can do everything well. It’s a COOP game with different classes and plenty of weapons to choose from, there need to be roles otherwise we might as well reduce every character to a “dude with a sword” because they all do the same thing.

If you want to be super stronk against a horde, you probably have to sacrifice single target damage or armor penetration somewhere and vice versa… that’s only fair.

TL;DR: IMO new combat “sucks” if you’ve acquired bad habits from the previous version of the game. Bad habits that did hurt your team before but the game was easy enough for that to not be an issue, now those bad habits have more of an impact and it’s easier to wipe due to them.

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If I’m understanding correctly, you’re just saying that you already liked to use crowd control weapons before 2.0 and thought more people should play that way. So for you, the combat still feels very similar.

For those of us who never enjoyed using crowd control weapons because we find them utterly boring, the combat feels immensely different, and almost entirely in a negative way. Crowd control focus is effective, yes, but it’s also uninteresting to me. I enjoy the chaotic and dynamic combat with enemies all over the place, where mobility is rewarded. That seems basically gone now.

If the 2.0 combat is almost the same for some people, and utterly terrible for others, how is that overall a good direction for the game? The old version of the game felt like it allowed for more playstyles.

It really seems to me that you think there’s a “right” way to play, and you like that people are now being forced to play the game “right”. The apparent prevalence of that attitude in the people defending the combat changes in 2.0 just makes me disappointed and kinda sad to be part of this community.

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Not really, no, not at all. I never used heavy crowd control weapons much myself.

I’m simply saying that a good player does MORE than just pressing left click. EVERY single melee weapon has both block and push and for a good reason.

If you never used push (or push-stab) during melee combat before then you were simply doing it wrong, no offense.

Make no mistake, the playstyle I propose and 100% believe is the key to clear Legend and especially Cata comfortably is NOT a “boring stagger meta” but rather a very aggressive one. Even if you just push once every 10 seconds while swinging your weapon it will make a big difference and there’s nothing “slow” about it, in fact most weapons will benefit from some kind of either block-animation-cancelling or push-stabbing. If you’re cancelling animations with a block, you’re already just one click away from pushing, it doesn’t break up the pace in any way.

There is absolutely a “right” way to play. It means using all the tools at your disposal and being as useful as possible for the team. Reducing the combat to “I press left click fast” is not interesting in any way, it’s simply just an easy way out.

I never said that the type of gameplay I liked was left click spam. What ever gave you that idea?

Anyway, it’s pretty clear I’m just wasting my breath here. You don’t care how anyone else wants to play as you think there’s a “right” way, and Fatshark seems to have a pretty similar attitude.

I wish I could just have my old game back.

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Yet again generalized complaints and accusations but absolutely nothing of substance.

90% of the time you are perfectly fine with simply dodging around the enemies and cutting them down, with an occasional push. How is this so vastly different from what the game was before 2.0? You are “wasting your breath here” but you haven’t even begun to explain your point, still.

What’s the alternative to dodging, attacking and pushing? If it’s not just left click spam then what? Am I missing something? Do people just spam jump in a circle or…?
Enlighten me.
Or don’t.

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If you try really hard, do you think you could make your tone any more condescending? That would probably make more people want to engage with you in a meaningful discussion.

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Hammer+shield is still terrible, specifically because of it’s poor super-armor/boss damage.

Also conflag burn battlewizard trivializes hordes solo from ranged without resource constraints. In fact the build overall probably got a buff from this patch. Pretty much the only downside is chaos warriors.

I can’t take anything that @Voidq says seriously.

Mainly because of the fact that all that has happened is the meta has shifted 180. Now heavy stagger weapons are meta and as a result have much lower time to kill.

You can still do the same things people used to do on 1.6 or whatever. You just have to adapt and use a different weapon. Salty’s billhook is a good example. That thing just absolutely puts most of his other weapons to shame.

The point here is that it has absolutely nothing to do with the “coop experience” that’s making it different for you. You were using underpowered, non-meta load-outs before and now that those same load-outs are extremely meta you’re getting all giddy in your pants and telling everyone else who is lamenting about their bladed DPS weapons sucking to “git gud” essentially.

LOL

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