THP/Stagger Talents - Very Simple Temporary Fixes

I realize that a full rework of these talents is probably beyond the scope of this BBB.

This feedback is based upon the imbalance in THP talents and Stagger talents. Classes with otherwise good toolkits are being severely weakened by the imbalance in these talents. As a temporary solution, I suggest the following changes:

  1. Unchained

She needs to have either Smiter or Assassin place of Mainstay or Bulwark. Flame Sword is the only weapon that gets any synergy out of Bulwark and it is better to have Enhanced Power in that case. This is a melee focused sienna career. Please give her smiter. She gets 60% damage as her passive and Pyro instantly gets 20% of that back via smiter. This makes Pyro actually better in melee than UC with almost every weapon given the rest of her toolkit. Very unfortunate.

  1. Bounty Hunter

Bounty Hunter needs to have Crit/Headshot replaced with Cleave. Replacing On Kill would work as well although there currently exists some builds around killing elites so it at least makes a little bit of sense with the talent changes.

  1. Shade

Replace crit/headshot with cleave. It is simply inferior in every way even at 100% headshots with most weapons. On kill works well for shade so this change isn’t as needed as the others.

  1. Foot Knight

FK needs to have smiter or assassin in place of Mainstay. Mainstay is a purely inferior talent and until it is reworked, no class should be missing essentially 20% damage. That is basically a non-starter for any career.

  1. Grail Knight

He needs to have cleave. Most of Kruber’s weapons are high cleave. It doesn’t make a ton of sense to lock a melee only character out of having the most consistent form of thp.

  1. Ranger Veteran

Ranger Veteran needs to have smiter instead of Bulwark. For the reasons listed above, not having smiter is a huge hit to any career. It’s especially detrimental to a career like RV because it basically boils him down to one good build and a bunch of trash builds. Xbow, throwing axes, and Handgun builds all require a lot of melee. Not having smiter on a build where you need to melee a lot is a feels bad. Also, why does a ranged career want Bulwark? Very odd choice.

  1. Handmaiden
    Maybe assassin on HM? Not having assassin might have been intentional to lower her dps given her high crit toolkit. So not super sold on this one.

  2. Huntsman

Huntsman is in a fine state as Spear and mace both work decently well for thp regen. However, it would open up more build variety to replace kill thp with cleave.

Let me know if I missed any.


Yea smiter and cleave temp hp are the overall simplest fixes.
i’m sure you have this opinion aswell, but the best way is still to add every stagger talent and every temp hp to every career or just remove things like bulwark or something (less ideal tho). It doesn’t make sense to not have them on certain careers, unless it’s a way to balance (which i don’t tihnk it is).

Yeah probably. I was just trying to make a suggestion I thought FS would be willing to implement.


My god have the times changed

I’ve gotten used to running support Grail Knight emphasizing a FK style shield play that whips out the ult for high threat targets. THP on stagger works mildly well when I’m backed into a corner and have to stagger instead of attack. Not sure if it’s an efficient way to GK, but it’s survivable and lets me push into the elites I want dead the most.

Huntsman, who has the same problem as Ranger Veteran, who has the same problem as Unchained. Bulwark is not a good talent with a debatable use as a debuff.

True. But Huntsman has Smiter. I honestly couldn’t have told you what the other option was as I’m not in game. Unless they put assassin there, it really doesn’t matter lol.

Edit: I will add cleave on huntsman though. Opens up 1H sword, X sword, Halbered, etc. On kill for a class built around sniping elites is kinda questionable.

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Bulwark basically exists to fill out a quota. It’s affect on fights is so negligible that you might as well be running anything. Zero impact on gameplay.

I know people used to swear by Mainstay, but it also has a low impact. Nothing really beats Smiter or Assassin when the thing you want to die in 1 to 2 hits actually dies, what does Mainstay offer? The same thing but in extra steps?

Oh, btw, you could add Battle Wizard into the mix. Her melee isn’t anywhere near good enough to justify having THP on kill.

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GK have quite good thp on my opinion, mostly because his ult count to melee kills so thp on kill is good option, and stagger is pretty much second good option because nearly mandatory shield

Yeah I never run a shield on him. So I often find myself thp starved against skaven.

So use ult on elites?

What is it, 5 thp for an SV?
I know the old legend value was 3. IDK if it’s increased in cata.

not getting hit will help to have that thp uptime :slight_smile: even killing slave rats reset thp decay

Well thank you for stating the obvious.


IB could also benefit from cleave instead of kill. I mean its IB. His job is not to kill stuff and he will not get most elites in a competent team…

Not sure if necessary but Id be interested bout smiter on waystalker too. Would make a few of her meele options better on her. (Glaive, 1h axe , … stuff that isnt great on headshots)

Battle Wizard might also benefit from cleave instead of kill. Sure famished often forces you to go flamesword and stagger but for some builds that dont utilize famished it would be nice to have cleave thp as an option.

Besides that I defenitely agree with your suggestions. Its a temporary fix but its a fix nontheless.

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don’t even need thp if you just don’t get hit, better off taking heal-share :sun_with_face:


I hope FS takes note of these suggestions for this BBB, as it’s a great chance to try some new stuff even if it doesn’t work out.
While the THP/Stagger talents probably need a complete rebalance, I think for now at least implementing these changes should be a good band-aid.


What if bulwark had a longer duration like 4s?

And Assassin can be renamed if it doesn’t fit thematically. It could be finesse, preciseness or whatever.

Its 10%. If you are that close to a breakpoint you either dont care about it, or you already took the property. If there is no breakpoint with 10% in the first place its a complete waist.
Bulwark is complete bogus atm, especially compared to what smiter and assassin are capable to do.

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giving smiter to ranger would go a long long way to making him tolerable. I’m actually running 7% power because I want to use 2h axe and mainstay is less than ideal.


Agreed with everything else, but hard disagree with this one. You have a 30 second Ult that puts enemies into stagger 2. I don’t think anybody else can utilise mainstay like FK can. You get so much damage with something like 2h hammer whacking chaos Warriors knocked on their back by your ult. Often you can kill them before they get up mostly because of mainstay. I would much rather see bulwark go.


Bulwark and mainstay really step on each others toes in my opinion, with bulwark just being a weaker version. I say this because if your team is stacked up in a choke the 10% melee bonus is meaningless as everything will be shredded regardless.

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