There needs to be more to prevent hero players from 'tryharding'

Summarized, there is way too much to allow heroes to rush through. A short list:

  • Righteous Stand: The ladder short-cut can be opened from below and it’s way too cheesy. Fixing this should be simple - Force the player to hold E at the ladder as an action
  • Move-techs such as weapon-cycle-movement for extra speed must be nerfed
  • Speed Potions’s movement speed increase should be disabled for this mode. It can still increase attack speed, that’s already powerful enough.
  • Poison Wind Globadier gas clouds are just ignored and ran through by experienced players. It needs to slow or just be stronger to discourage people from ignoring it.

That’s not even talking the regeneration and healing from Saltzpyre Warrior of Sigmar and Kruber Mercenary.

When really experienced players and pre-mades play, you really get to see how strong heroes are. It’s whacky. Just feels incredibly cheap when your team is already struggling and then people try to min-max their gameplay on the hero side like this. It’s anti-fun.

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I’m more in favour of nerfing the instant heal & pickup of Priest and handmaiden before doing more, see how it plays out. The current balancing for Pactsworn is pretty good IMO so I’d rather see the hero side get some tweaks.

Really, since the only way to score is as heroes, there should be no way for them to push non-stop through the mission. I’ve seen Twitch streamers. One of the streamers is my steam friend Gutter Monkey. He’s got about 300 less hours than me at 2.7k hours, but he’s going into this with a full team of experienced players and steamrolling through the mission. This causes newer players to quit immediately. I’ve played with, and against him, and I can tell you, it’s not fun being paired up like that.

What the game needs is a basic ranking system, and if players of equivalent rank can’t be found, then the AI director needs to crank things up a notch and start throwing bigger and more frequent waves at the enemy team, especially if they vastly outrank the other team.

Right now, when you have one experienced team of confident players with around 1000 hours or more, some of us 3000-5000 hours, what happens is the hero team just can’t be beat at all, and it’s a draw. Unless some cheesy stuff happens, and you can hook one off a ledge, you can’t stop them.

3 Likes

Why not both? This game mode needs serious adjustments and rats need more power or heroes less.
Heroes rushing through holding W is almost unstoppable.



A ranking system won’t fix the imbalance from the game mode itself.

You’re missing the point. I’m in full agreement that the game mode itself suffers from major issues, many of which I brought up too.

However, I’ve seen a lot of hero teams wipe pretty easily that do great on the Skaven side. These players are typically inexperienced with PvE at difficulties above champion by the look of things, or just fairly new to the game. They seem to intuitively get the Skaven side pretty quick and assume it’s extremely skewed in favor of the Skaven while experienced players are doing great with both, but can easily survive just about anything if all 4 hero players are used to Legend or Cata and have had minimal time to adapt to PvP.

The imbalance of the Game Mode itself can’t be properly addressed without a ranking system. For new players, an aggressive AI director with lots of hordes and elites (even at Recruit difficulty), it’s going to overwhelm players who already struggle in PvE on Legend or higher, but if we keep things as they are, teams of experienced players are almost always going to achieve max score.

Furthermore, experienced players will just quit and burn out on the game mode if they are always forced to pair with randos who are terrible on their team get bored with the challenge, while inexperienced players will burn out and rage quit if they constantly get crapped on by teams of experienced players steamrolling through the mission.

Before you can address issues with the game mode itself properly, there needs to be some kind of ranking system or changes will not affect players in a proportional and fair manner.

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i wouldn’t really say that. I have played on cata for 2k hours and suck as the heroes in versus. There is just something about having no hero power, disablers having basically no attack animation unless they are far away and ranged specials being much more dangerous than normal. Almost every time I’m on the hero team we wipe pretty easily to op skaven players, when im the skaven we barely do any dmg and the heroes rush through the map so fast that I basically have to run to the part where the objective is if I die once or twice.

At 3k hours currently and a few Cata solos under my belt as well as completing Cata Fortunes of War with randos. For the first few games, felt the exact same way, but that’s because I didn’t understand the game mode yet, the breakpoints or that score is only gained through objective rushing. It’s still challenging as heroes if your team is staying behind playing peekaboo with the specials instead of moving, or if you don’t yet understand the game mode and aren’t familiar with the missions, but that’s a different story.

The low power on recruit difficulty equates to similar breakpoints that you’d get on Legend, but somehow, I’m still one-shotting black rats in the chest with a crossbow.

Because the elites, monsters, and hordes do such low damage, there’s nothing to stop Heroes from putting minimal effort into clearing them out and kiting them to objectives quickly. As long as the hero team stays close together, uses their utility, they can res each other quite a lot, and the Skaven heroes can’t do much to stop them.

My experience is that when the hero team wipes, whether it’s mine or the other’s, it seems they just don’t get how to play. I’ve seen groups of experienced players, and steam friends, and played with and against them. Experienced Player vs. Experienced Players, the game is always a draw because the heroes can’t be stopped. Inexperienced players vs. Experienced players, the inexperienced Hero team often gets stuck playing peekaboo with the Skaven, gets distracted, gets overwhelmed during hordes. It’s over quick, while the hero team with more hours just rolls onward with little resistance.

If you’re struggling, on Recruit, even with low power, I think there has to be something else going on. I just don’t have any issue at all with heroes if my team is a group of seasoned players. If not, and I’m paired with people trying PvP for the first time or with people who might normally struggle on Legend, then it’s going to be a rough time anyway, especially if the other team is even halfway capable by comparison.

You should be able to complete with heroes fairly easily. You can go down quite a lot without penalty. It’s especially easy when people are abusing the meta.

  • Tried Pyro? Gain lots of THP from burning head, with 1H Sword and Beam Staff, can clear hordes in seconds, elites too.
  • Tried SotT? Wall to block guns/flames, Deepwood hitscan disable specials.
  • Tried Ironbreaker? Trollhammer to both clear hordes and wipe out specials in proximity to blast. Drakefire pistols can be spammed like beamstaff to clear hordes fast.
  • Tried Engineer? Like Ironbreaker, with trollhammer, but lots of ammo, lots of bombs, and bomb your way through most of the mission and trollhammer/crankgun enemy players.
  • Tried Necro? Can usually one-shot specials without maintaining line of sight, and skeletons can be used to wipe out enemy players very fast in spots you can’t reach.
  • Tried Mercenary? Res allies without having to pick them up, and buff whole team with THP. He can take everyone from 5hp to 30hp with one use, 36hp with SotT, in addition to getting them up through floors and around corners, and freeing them from nearby disablers.
  • Tried Waystalker? Green HP Regen for the whole team up to half their health, 3hp every 10 seconds, excellent special sniping and breakpoints with the longbow, even at long distances, and you can add bleed to the arrows to eek out extra damage. Also, Trushot Volley, while having been nerfed, still seeks out specials you aim at like the burning head and returns some ammo.
  • Tried Shade? Can go invisible and rush enemy specials quite frequently while wading through hordes and slicing them up very quick.
  • Tried Handmaiden? Can still one or two shot with even the nerfed javelins since they nerfed penetration and damage, not the reload speed and stagger, and unlmiited ammo, while also being very fast and easily rushing objectives and turning invisible when dashing towards specials, and resurrects downed allies quickly and with 20 extra green HP.
  • Tried Zealot? Massive ranged power boost at low HP to both ranged and melee, allowing for easy breakpoints with even pistols and volley crossbow. Lots of THP gen and gets the “cheat death” when reduced to 1HP and can easily dash into enemy specials to kill them in melee.
  • Tried Ranger Vet? THP smoke cloud, invisiblity to snipe enemy players free from being poked, one-shot breakpoints with crossbows at medium/close ranges on all enemy players and stormvermin.
  • Tried Warrior Priest? Almost have to try to die with him, he has extremely good THP gen with his shield, lots of damage reduction, especially with Implaccable, can make himself and an ally invulnerable frequently with his rage bar filling paired with use of his abilty, allowing them to wade through hordes and keep them from dying or going down when disabled as well as killing the disabler.
  • Tried Bounty Hunter? Can use the Blessed Shots consume no ammo, one free easy one-shot crit kill with the crossbow, and blessed shot for another easy followup one shot that’s just hitscan. You can use Duckfoot still to clear hordes, elites, and enemy players, and reload with melee kills that get up to a 35% damage bonus with his talents.

A premade hero team of seasoned players without abusing meta can easily push forward. I really don’t see many situations in which the hero team is going to fail unless it’s just lacking familalarity with PvP or the game in general. I’ve seen so many draws against teams, usually some combo of Ranger Vet, Mercenary, Warrior Priest, Necromancer, SotT, Enginner, and/or Pyromancer. While a lot of careers are crappy in this mode, you have a lot of options.

I really don’t see why, that Fatshark can’t make it harder for the heroes, even without a ranking system. If they make it more difficult for the heroes, it’ll still be fair since an increase in difficulty for the mission applies to both teams equally. I will admit, it’s not fun having to play the heroes. You can’t make very interesting builds without item properties to specialize. It’s frustrating to deal with enemy players playing specials, even if you can endure most of the damage and get res’d a lot. It may not be fun, but it certainly isn’t that challenging, even when the Skaven players are good at it. Additionally, because there’s so many DLC options that make the PvP easier (Warrior Priest, Necomancer, SotT, Engineer) I’ve seen people getting butthurt about Pay2Win. Fatshark’s gotta take a look at this stuff.

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