# The issue with vanilla and shared weapons in a Sci-Fi game **URL:** \ **Category:** Gameplay Feedback\ **Created:** [April 17, 2023, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567 "2023-04-17T13:52:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sarumane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Sarumane](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Sarumane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 6:13pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/61 "2023-04-17T18:13:34Z")
What does this solve tough? You still have to come to terms with where you wanna place shared weapons balance wise and how many we want, but now you also lose those 40k fans that came around for trying to check out what a bolter or powersword feels like, which they now have to grind to level 30 for. I sincerely do not think this solves any problem either I or anyone else has. ---
**Author:** ![Heretical\_Cactus](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/heretical_cactus/32/73867_2.png) [@Heretical\_Cactus](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Heretical_Cactus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 6:25pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/62 "2023-04-17T18:25:30Z")
Anyway, there is no reason to restrict the weapons that don’t need to be restricted, even in the weapon that are restricted some should become shared with different classes, like a Crusader Zealot with Power Swords, a Veteran with Flamer, the Squad Leader with the Duel Swords… It’s not a problem and it give more build freedom. As for the fact that we have more mundane weapons than specials, it’s normal as we start with the easy stuff to let us introduce the special stuff later (Like how VT2 introduced Paired weapons as dlc). As for the Variants, some will be more optimal for certain builds than others, it’s alright, you don’t need to meta chase, play with what feel good. And it doesn’t cost as much. Take the various Heavy swords, which have moves that are the same, but in different orders and such, so they aren’t harder to balance (Basically needing to be balanced as a family, then balanced internally) ---
**Author:** ![Sarumane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Sarumane](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Sarumane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/63 "2023-04-17T18:43:49Z")
> [@Heretical\_Cactus](#): > > there is no reason to restrict the weapons that don’t need to be restricted This statement is just wrong on so many levels. First of all what does that even mean for a weapon to not have to be restricted? What’s the qualifier? Second of all I already pointed out, that it is bad design if most weapons are shared between classes and are made to be competitive, as this is both boring variety-wise and a disaster for balance. Solution: Pump out better unique weapons (that stay unique) and make it clear they are a tier above. Now… > [@Heretical\_Cactus](#): > > even in the weapon that are restricted some should become shared with different classes, like a Crusader Zealot with Power Swords, a Veteran with Flamer, the Squad Leader with the Duel Swords… NO Weapons that are already restricted are so for a reason and imma reiterate: A veteran running around with the same flamer as the zealot is beyond busted the same as a Zealot running around with a power sword is. So you might at one point get a new flamer specifically for the veteran with less damage and 40% as much ammo, but you don’t get the same weapon. Why? Because it then would have to be balanced on both classes, which doesn’t work. Or you get a new Veteran that is melee focused, but even then I don’t know how much we want to compromise class identity. If you play a Zealot and wanna play power sword, go and level a veteran period. ---
**Author:** ![Rieven](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/rieven/32/48558_2.png) [@Rieven](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rieven)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/64 "2023-04-17T19:18:13Z")
You earn the right to use the proper gear as you gain standing and respect in the war party. It fits the narrative and the lore and stops them wasting all the work they put into the grey weapons. Also stops them balancing the game around a latrine shovel and makes space for them to focus on creating end game weapons like power axes etc Even allows for people who want to use a latrine shovel to still have one but stops them complaining that it isn’t as good as a power sword in combat. problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Heretical\_Cactus](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/heretical_cactus/32/73867_2.png) [@Heretical\_Cactus](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Heretical_Cactus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/65 "2023-04-17T19:51:23Z")
> [@Sarumane](#): > > First of all what does that even mean for a weapon to not have to be restricted? What’s the qualifier? Lorefull availability, for example Force Weapon being restricted to Psyker classes, then you can restrict some to make a class feel special, but it shouldn’t be all of them. > [@Sarumane](#): > > Second of all I already pointed out, that it is bad design if most weapons are shared between classes and are made to be competitive, as this is both boring variety-wise and a disaster for balance. You think it is a bad design, what you want is to either restrict build freedom or establish a forced meta by making the “special” weapons straight up better than the rest to push people to use them. > [@Sarumane](#): > > Solution: > Pump out better unique weapons (that stay unique) and make it clear they are a tier above. This is a flawed way to see things, strive to be balanced, not to force a meta. > [@Sarumane](#): > > A veteran running around with the same flamer as the zealot is beyond busted the same as a Zealot running around with a power sword is. A Sharpshooter with a Flamer would be busted, another Veteran class could be less so, same way a Preacher with a Power Sword would be busted, but on a Crusader it could be much less so. > [@Sarumane](#): > > So you might at one point get a new flamer specifically for the veteran with less damage and 40% as much ammo, but you don’t get the same weapon. Why? Because it then would have to be balanced on both classes, which doesn’t work. Or you get a new Veteran that is melee focused, but even then I don’t know how much we want to compromise class identity. > > If you play a Zealot and wanna play power sword, go and level a veteran period. The classes already have passive stats that are unique to them, if a weapon would be outright broken on a class compared to the other, maybe it mean that that class is too broken, and not the weapon. The Preacher shouldn’t get a Power Sword, it doesn’t need it, it doesn’t match, other Zealot Class could match with it. > [@Rieven](#): > > Also stops them balancing the game around a latrine shovel and makes space for them to focus on creating end game weapons like power axes etc Forcing a meta is sh#t ---
**Author:** ![Reginald](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/reginald/32/63707_2.png) [@Reginald](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Reginald)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/66 "2023-04-17T20:08:29Z")
> [@Sarumane](#): > > Or you get a new Veteran that is melee focused, but even then I don’t know how much we want to compromise class identity. That’s exactly the kind of problem that is solved by class restricting weapons, as you say. If you want to play this guy: ![Screenshot_20230403-094008_Brave](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/fatshark/original/3X/2/9/29e8ef2761bd240262139f73307b7cf3fc7e4a04.jpeg) You should probably expect it to be a Veteran Specialist or something. I agree with Sarumane on this one, its not a good idea to just go full unrestricted. Sharpshooter isn’t going to be using weapons that don’t mesh with that aesthetic and identity and for good reasons. But there are ways to get what you might want and it comes from Classes. > [@Heretical\_Cactus](#): > > The Preacher shouldn’t get a Power Sword, it doesn’t need it, it doesn’t match, other Zealot Class could match with it. Which notably is what you have also said here. Does this mean the three of us are in agreement mostly? ---
**Author:** ![Heretical\_Cactus](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/heretical_cactus/32/73867_2.png) [@Heretical\_Cactus](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Heretical_Cactus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/67 "2023-04-17T20:10:02Z")
> [@Reginald](#): > > You should probably expect it to be a Veteran Specialist or something. I agree with Sarumane on this one, its not a good idea to just go full unrestricted Just to note but i didn’t say to go whole unrestricted, I’m just saying that it shouldn’t be restricted more than it is right now, and more than it is needed. > [@Reginald](#): > > Which notably is what you have also said here. > > Does this mean the three of us are in agreement mostly? Honestly I don’t know, I saw we mostly agreed, but not Saruman * * * Mundane weapon shouldn’t get restricted too much because there is just no reason to do so ---
**Author:** ![Flawless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eada6e/32.png) [@Flawless](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Flawless)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/68 "2023-04-17T20:34:22Z")
> [@Rieven](#): > > You earn the right to use the proper gear as you gain standing and respect in the war party. I find that we should earn the right to upgrade our base modifiers and unlock perks and blessings. 😃 (i am getting quite desparate) ---
**Author:** ![Reginald](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/reginald/32/63707_2.png) [@Reginald](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Reginald)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/69 "2023-04-17T20:53:38Z")
maybe we can earn the right to choose which difficulty modifiers we want on the mission board while we’re dreaming big 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rieven](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/rieven/32/48558_2.png) [@Rieven](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rieven)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/70 "2023-04-17T21:13:15Z")
> [@Heretical\_Cactus](#): > > You think it is a bad design, what you want is to either restrict build freedom or establish a forced meta by making the “special” weapons straight up better than the rest to push people to use them. Its goofy as F that people are running around with a shovel or a dagger. F all these crappy weapons off and add some of the real 40k gear in for every class. You cant balance power weapons with standard metal tools and not look stupid. You think forcing a meta is sh#t? your stuck in the middle of it right now. What’s sh#t is that half the weapons are garden tools and they are trying to balance iconic 40k war gear up against it. Add the proper gear get rid of the garden tools then balance away as much as you like. Or dont idgaf anymore lol. > [@Flawless](#): > > I find that we should earn the right to upgrade our base modifiers and unlock perks and blessings You wish 😛 > [@Reginald](#): > > maybe we can earn the right to choose which difficulty modifiers we want on the mission board while we’re dreaming Keep dreaming 😃 That would make your life easier and less of a grind cant have that now can we… I mean maybe your shovel is really really really really really really really really really sharp i dunno Monomolecular shovel ---
**Author:** ![DVD.exe](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/dvd.exe/32/116175_2.png) [@DVD.exe](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/DVD.exe)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/71 "2023-04-17T21:23:26Z")
The sole purpose for a bunch of the human weapons is just to inflate the RNG. If ever there was an argument for more unique class locked weapons and less shared stuff, it’s to lessen the RNG bloat. Seriously, tho, some of these weapons have no excuse for existing. I hope when/if fatshark gets around to them they’re one-and-done with them. Example of my point, the MG XII is the better las rifle; if you want the other 2 MGs on par, then they need stuff that actually makes them different like burst fire or better accessories, anything goes. Apply that attitude to infantry guns, HH, brautos, and recon las (combat shotguns exempt because they are cool and good and only need a little more ammo). ---
**Author:** ![Rieven](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/rieven/32/48558_2.png) [@Rieven](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rieven)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/72 "2023-04-17T21:26:44Z")
> [@DVD.exe](#): > > The sole purpose for a bunch of the human weapons is just to inflate the RNG. Agreed, same with the blessings too btw. ---
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/73 "2023-04-17T22:40:34Z")
> [@Heretical\_Cactus](#): > > Forcing a meta is sh#t Thanks… you said that with the right words… ---
**Author:** ![Sarumane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Sarumane](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Sarumane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/74 "2023-04-17T22:47:10Z")
> [@Reginald](#): > > Unironically try out the Chain Axe. It takes getting used to but comes with high mobility (4 dodges, sprint speed and efficiency) I went back to look at the Chain Axe and it is exactly as abyssmal as I remembered. Just for the record though - why do you think it has good mobility exactly? It has basically the same stats as the power sword mobility-wise, which itself feels like wading through mud… Sure it has four dodges, but with a negative distance of -13. Furthermore the weapon lives through its push attack, which makes it borderline unusable on Veteran, as it is the class with the biggest stamina regeneration issues. Zealot might get away with it, but even on him I don’t see myself using this abomination. ---
**Author:** ![Sarumane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Sarumane](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Sarumane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 10:58pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/75 "2023-04-17T22:58:39Z")
I don’t know. Like I believe the two of us agree mostly. @Heretical_Cactus on the other hand interprets my intention as reducing build variety, when in reality it does the opposite. Furthermore I have no idea what to do with statements like these: > [@Heretical\_Cactus](#): > > Forcing a meta is sh#t Like we do that all the time when we critisize the balance and FS follows up with a patch. It is necessary if the naturally emerging meta isn’t conducive to a good balance state and ensuing changes a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Reginald](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/reginald/32/63707_2.png) [@Reginald](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Reginald)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 11:06pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/76 "2023-04-17T23:06:18Z")
Well here’s a comparison. I generally have been using the hammer for a long time so going up from 2 to 4 dodges feels great and the dodge distance is sufficient to avoid damage. I have used the Antax and its obviously good but I can get similar value out of the Chaxe in terms of damage numbers, more even. I do run it on my +8 satamina zealot so +4 stamina with a 0.86% sprint cost means I can run around quite effectively. I guess it just depends on your definition of “mobility”. But I can sprint forever on this thing and it has plenty of dodge and push-block has a stamina reduction modifier on the Defense stat so that works to the Chaxe’s favor as well. I’m not sure I would like it on Vet since vet feels like ass in melee. But that’s a whole other conversation to have. ![Screenshot 2023-04-17 180049](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/fatshark/original/3X/5/1/511c6685ed22834a4abaec55285cb5e2468ef6c7.png) ---
**Author:** ![Sarumane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Sarumane](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Sarumane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 11:18pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/77 "2023-04-17T23:18:49Z")
Sprint Speed is not really significant as I never would want to pair a weapon like a thunder hammer with a slow secondary. So for sprinting alone I can just weapon switch. While it is true going up from 2 to 4 dodges feels somewhat impactful, that to me still is a very slow immobile weapon. A weapon for me starts having mobility once its dodge distance is no longer negative. ---
**Author:** ![Reginald](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/reginald/32/63707_2.png) [@Reginald](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Reginald)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2023, 5:46am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/78 "2023-04-18T05:46:53Z")
> [@Sarumane](#): > > Sprint Speed is not really significant as I never would want to pair a weapon like a thunder hammer with a slow secondary. So for sprinting alone I can just weapon switch. I use efficient sprint and slide/dodge as my key way to move around under fire. Since I have so much stamina and sprint efficiency the chain axe’s superior sprint over many other choices I consider fun gives me the ability to stay untouchable for longer. Admittedly this is all preference. I can see its not to your liking. ---
**Author:** ![anon61080228](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@anon61080228](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon61080228)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2023, 7:10am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567/79 "2023-04-18T07:10:52Z")
So Fatshark added crusader armor as cosmetics, but not helmet. [Previous page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/the-issue-with-vanilla-and-shared-weapons-in-a-sci-fi-game/78567.md?page=3)