The Hero Side is Frustration on Rails

When you’ve been stuck mostly playing the hero team too, it feels terrible, playing peekaboo wtih specials while you pick up barrels, or stand next to a moving cart, or stand in a circle getting gas tossed on you. The Hero side is not fun, and there’s nothing unique about playing the hero team in PvP, in fact, most of hero team’s kit weapons, talents, and abilites aren’t even good for PvP. I just want to skip playing the heroes so I can get back to sadistically screwing with the other players as the Skaven.

The Soulstealer and Deepwood are Cheap “gotcha” Weapons

Both of the above staves not fun to play against or with for obvious reasons. Skaven players will often disconnect when they experience it. Being trapped immediately by Deepwood is the equivalent of getting one shot in most cases. While the Necro Staff might not always get you in one shot, you can’t do much to avoid it since they only need to see a hair for an instant on your head to target you. At least with handguns, they have to aim to get an accurate shot.

My Suggestions:

  • Get rid of them for PvP or just make it much more difficult to target players with them.
  • Perhaps have the Deepwood in PvP require more than an instant of maintaining line of sight and make it more difficult to lock onto Skaven Players.
  • Make Soulstealer do about 75% of it’s current damage in addition to making it more difficult to lock onto Skaven players.

The Objectives are Cumbersome

The objectives themselves, barrel tossing, cart babysitting, etc., they aren’t fun at all, but they serve an important role. The objectives pace the game, force players to work together, and pull them into fun combat arenas or challenging situations where they would otherwise just press on with ease.
However, all of the gameplay and fun of PvP is shaped around the Skaven’s opportunites to ambush the heroes. For the hero team, being ambushed constantly isn’t fun, especially when you have to divide your focus between the enemy players, and boring objectives. While the Skaven players are having fun making you miserable, you’re just trying to pick em off while dealing with AI trash enemies as you lob barrels around or babysit a cart.

My Suggestions:

  • Get rid of all the assinine objectives that can be rushed.
  • Instead have some checkpoints and arenas where the heroes can’t proceed until they survive a certain amount of time, AND other arenas or checkpoints where they must defeat a certain number of enemy waves.


  • This way, the heroes must prioritize being able to handle hordes, elites, and bosses as well. Right now anything besides the opposing players and rushing objectives is just a distraction.
  • This also has the added benefit of making heros spec’d for handling elites, hordes and bosses relvant as well. As is, all that’s getting sidelined hard.

PvE = Horde Mayhem / PvP = Anxious Sniping Fest on Wheels

This game’s fun and uniqueness comes from melee combat and hordes, but in PvP the hordes and elites just feel like a temporary distraction, a minor inconvenience, an annoyance. In PvP, because specials are the enemy team, they’re more frequent and dangerous than elites on hordes on recruit difficulty. Melee combat isn’t that important. You can still complete objectives while kiting hordes and a monster. Most talents, weapons and abilites that deal with hordes are just not important in PvP and they don’t make much sense here. Many career talents were already ignored by most experienced players in PvE because they’re objectively bad, and now in PvP, that’s just become a much worse situation since the most relevant kind of enemy are the specials, and nothing else comes close.

My Suggestions:

  • Add more playable options besides specials to the pool. During combat arena events, perhaps have enemy players spawn in as more powerful elite enemies “champions” if you will that have the moveset of the elite they’re based on (Chaos Warrior, Stormvermin, Plague Monk, Berserker).
  • Have a playable monster or boss for the enemy player that’s dealing the most damage to the heroes. Something that can be spawned on the final events.
  • Make Hordes and Elites more frequent, and make them do real damage.

Even Ranged Careers are Getting Sidelined

When playing a level 1 hero on recruit with no power bonuses from items, the ranged careers don’t eek out much more damage than any other character with a ranged weapon. The main reason to pick a ranged career is for the extra ammo, but there are plenty of ranged weapons that don’t rely on ammo now. So players often opt for something like Mercenary to resurrect your downed teammates and give everyone THP as well as push specials off, and Mercenary will still snipe specials just about as good as Huntsman. So in effect you have players mostly concerned with sniping specials, usually with careers that aren’t ranged focused, and with a weapon that doesn’t consume ammo if possible, while again, most of their abilities and weaopns for dealing with hordes, monsters, and elites are just an afterthought.

My Suggestions:

  • Bring the fun and rewarding feeling of defeating specials to PvP. For defeating enemy players, offer a temporary buff or powerup to the hero that got them.
  • Weapons with limitless ammo make the ammo limitations pointless. Instead just make specials more durable or players will only choose weapons with limitless ammo.

Final Thoughts

I’m pretty much done with the PvP alpha because it’s unbearable to play it in it’s current state.

Even though this is just an alpha, and playing the Skaven is fun, as soon as you run into a hero team with players abusing the Soulstealer and the Deepwood’s ability to easily target specials, it just ruins the experience.


I also want to add that for the Skaven, hitscan weapons feel cheap. Ergo any of the rifles.
On the other hand on the hero team, Poison Wind Globadier spam can be cheap. But that said few other things are effective.

I personally still think the mode is a lot of fun, despite it’s flaws. But for the core message here I agree with Ensrick.

I imagine what the devs wish for is highly-competitive team mode, but this discussion makes me realize that what I want is something close to Twitch mode. I’d like to go into a buddy’s game and mess with 'em, or have them come into my game and try to string me up. Defeating the U5 is less a concern than an awesome expansion to the basic gameplay.

Fingers crossed that the devs achieve what they want, and can then apply that tech to add a thoroughly unbalanced but incredibly fun option to Adventure or CW play.

On their twitch stream they said the intend(ed) for it be a fun casual pvp mode


It doesn’t have to be thoroughly unbalanced to be a fun casual PvP game mode. I think an having the player take over a bit for the AI director is possible with the current game mode.

Just have the Skaven players each have abilities that let them spawn hordes, elites, and bosses with a limited number of uses and cooldowns between each use.

Maybe they can even include a competitive Twitch mode that lets the Skaven players choose instead of the Twitch chat, or something along those lines.

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