The Crafting Monument - In defiance of naysayers

Not like this bro.

Yep. That’s why so many of us were upset with Fatshark. It’s nice having you see the situation from our point of view.

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I wonder if some of the older, simpler issues (like close range still being set at the wrong value) would have been fixed by now if more FS devs played Darktide.

Issues like these always reminds me of what a stellar job Rebb Ford is doing with Warframe. Even when she was ‘just’ a CM and not creative director she actually played the game with her fellow degenerates. The amount of stuff they’ve been fixing in the past year is insane.

I’m not mad, just disappointed.

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Not even that. Holding playtests in general is essential:

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Makes me wonder about whether a Darktide beta would be worth the time and energy to set up. Ideally it would serve as a conduit for more frequent dev/player discussion as well.

Given Darktide is uniquely (in the company AFAIK) set up as a GaaS, surely the vision is long-term. I can only see this helping, providing they have the resources and motivations. It would be no small feat though.

If they’ve done something like this before I’d be interested to hear about it!

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FS has done betas before (PvP mode, the Darktide beta is still in my steam library)

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Ahhh yes of course. I was thinking along the lines of a continuous PTR or something. I suppose the rate of changes may not justify it since it’s not super comparable to the large features you’ve mentioned.

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a supertest server would be great, could easily end most of FS plights just by letting players do the quality control before things hit live

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I think every grange should have a public test server. I think it would go far. I wonder if the min maxers would be satisfied in trying those super weird builds by having complete control in the PTU to “try” those builds. If it’s not good enough, then it wasn’t about trying new builds that they can’t reach. Thet just wanna FOTM chase :laughing::rofl:

imagine if they made perks that people wanted to use instead of dumpstering the list with garbage. even the unused +5% power or finesse would be more impactful than weakspot damage/critical damage/sprint efficiency/groaner damage/block efficiency etc. but for some reason its them wanting to follow a ‘fotm’ for attempting to build a weapon how they want to play. the horror, having your choices feel like they do something. even a minor thing like taking a hit off enemy X. if you need to have the background unfinishable task of building your ‘perfect’ weapon to keep playing that is your business/deficiency. don’t put it on me.

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There is garbage, but there’s also diamonds in the rough. We’re salvaging our gear.

Ohh you’re not even talking about blessings. I always get befuddled by people who complain about garbage weapons. A lot of players on these forums (some aren’t even players some haven’t touched the game in months or even a year, by their testimony - why they’re still in the forums making a ruckus as though they were paying players, let alone active players is beyond me)

You know, I’m starting to question the odds of people testifying that they spent 300 hours to get a desired weapon. And looking at this math, the odds it doesn’t add up.
Take the voidstrike staff for example:
Assuming that they mean literal 300 hours of gaming to get an ideal weapon with a 50% success rate at 30m/mission that’s 600 missions. Assuming a lax plasteel farm, it’s 2 missions to consecrate a weapon fully. You get four weapons per missions to roll for, (assuming you buy from brunt)… 600 missions with 9 different blessings, one which only has a single tier, 5 of those blessings are usable, two are A-tier. And most blessings work fine at Tier 3. The odds of NOT getting something under those conditions after 300 hours of play is 6.32*10^-22 % (or 0.000000000632%)

In case you couldn’t guess, this is up beyond the 95th percentile of all simulated rolls. In the Median Case, it would take 4.26 hours of gaming to get A BLESSING you want. 9 missions, accounting for failure rate.

If you’re more unlucky, the 70th percentile it takes 7.4 hours of gametime at 15 missions.

Of course, we’re not accounting for Melk and Emperor’s Blessings which are (let’s face it) sacrifice tools.

So, looping back to your quote:

The horror. having to earn your weapon. Just like everyone else. But then again, your name is marxist dictator so everyone should have the same things with n o requirement for work. Right? It belongs to everyone - work is not a factor; you wanna cut out the work.

Nevermind that there’s been people doing Auric Maelstroms with grey weapons.

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And with that name and posts like those its pretty clear there was a serious head injury in your glory days. Its also stupid and defeatist to say ‘well you can clear things with bad gear’ as if sand bagging is helping your argument. Did you know you can also play without trinkets? Or nodes? Or the monitor on?

Does that even put you in the qualified realm of discussion to see where gearing would even be of interest to players? No? Do you want to be part of that? No, you detest those players and prop up stupid RNG grind with ridiculous nonsense like ‘its HUURRRD WERK!’. No, it isn’t. If you roll it on a first try what was the accomplishment? Luck? You just want something to pump digital dollars into. Just play Monopoly Online and let people play the PVE game how they’d enjoy. Imagine putting so much stock in hating a subsect of players you admonish everyone who comes into your thread protesting your gambling addiction.

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Unfortunately if you have a system laden with ‘pure’ RNG (i.e. no pity system) then you’re going to generate a lot of bad stories. Here’s mine:

Just leveled my first Psyker to 30 (last class, yay!) and wanted a shiny new chainsword since I hadn’t settled on a ranged weapon yet. I’ve never done it before so I figured I’d drop up to 800k (I had 1.8m) on Brunt to get a good base.

800k Ordoes and an extremely-poor-UX slog later – one I assume has been designed to be the standard way to acquire a specific piece of gear – and I’m completely over it. Never again! Seriously BLAM that piece of crap!!!

I completely believe people when they say they’ve had exceptionally poor experiences.

The sheer amount of time and menial operations I had to perform to buy and sell gear was absurd. Get mods, I know.

Oh, another. After about a year of on-and-off playing, I finally got Power Cycler level 3. Haven’t found a power sword above 360 (let alone decent spread, I’m not a purist), but I’ve got the blessing I’ve been trying about as hard as one reasonably can within the confines of the system to get.

And so on, and so forth. Even if the system is behaving as designed, it facilitates that design very poorly. No amount of number-crunching theorycraft is going to convince people that their bad experience is irrelevant.

/rant

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Queue the appeal to extremes. You’re missing the point, and that’s alright. The point is, Crafting is not a prerequisite to play the what was it… Oh yeah the actual Game where you do that thing… Sorry, my head injury is making me all foggy. What was it? So obvious… Um… Oh yeah, killing Nurgle Cultists and other heretics. My bad.

Next the strawman. You’re putting words in my mouth saying who I detest. Which, I could see that as projection. You detest those opposing to your view as that’s what experience you’re working with. Otherwise, other possibilities might have been suggested first.

Oh, let’s not forget the ad hominem attack where you attack my character or my motivations as mentioned above. I haven’t met you before, but I would ask you (nicely) please, keep a lid on it. Ya keep going on like this. I’ll just flag your posts and move on. Ask anyone here, I’m not shy about it.

Now let’s throw in a false dilemma where you talk about the only way to earn something is through luck, ignoring other factors such as those provided by hadron through you submitting the weapons you have for sacrifice for blessings and the ENTIRE library of perks that were granted to every player without having to learn the perks as well.
Let’s not forget your hasty generalization where you assert that I just want to pump my digital dollars into the game. Mind you, without considering any other possible reason as to why I enjoy the system as it stands.

I mean, if you’re gonna tell me to kick rocks over this, I could say the same to you: Go play CoD. All the weapons are the same there.

Yeah, Dic, I can’t stress this enough.

Yeah, gonna hit that projection button again. I can count on one hand the number of people I hate on this Earth, and you aren’t one of them, nor anyone else in these forums.

The pity system is Hadron.

As do I. I also recognize that “poor experience” can range anywhere from:

  • “I didn’t get the perfect weapon I wanted.”

All the way down to:

  • “I upgraded a 310 weapon to its full capacity and got two rank two perks, one t1 blessing, and a worthless blessing that was t4!”

I use vanilla. I’m weird. I blow through about 200-500k ordos a day, sorting through all the greys that I want. I don’t upgrade them all, I just resell the ones I don’t want (when I run out of cash) and then upgrade the ones I want. I’ve been doing this for a while, and I will usually find a decent weapon (my definition of decent is very loose) at least once a day.

blinks That tells me nothing. What’s off and on playing for a year? Played for a week on Aug 7th, then again in October, then again in April? Not trying to be dismissive, but I suspect if you blew another 800k dockets, you’d find a 370+ sword on the first go around. If not, the second.

Where did I say their experience was irrelevant?

How is that a false dilemma? It is only luck - and layered luck at that.
First you need luck to get a weapon with base stats you like - via brunt or as a gift - pure luck and nothing you can do to get what you like.
Then in the process of making it orange you have to be lucky that at least two of the 4 additional attributes of the weapon are to your liking - pure luck and nothing you can do about it.

And if you want a vraiation of the weapon with other perks and blessings for a different built or because you like to tinker around you’ll have to repeat the process and will propably again create tons of weapons you can throw away because gambling sucks.

And the fact that you can compensate bad equipment with skill doesn’t make the process any more fun.

It is actually very simple:
If you enjoy gambling you’ll like the system.
If you think gambling is a stupid waste of time you’ll hate the system.

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I don’t like gambling, and I enjoy DT.

You have to earn resources to get the stuff. If you suck at the game, your resource generation will be very slow. Skill must be used to get resources quicker. As I’ve said before, people have been doing AMs with profane.

I understand where you’re coming from though, you’re talking about luck on the first draw. Yeah, there’s luck on the first draw, but if you spend time on salvaging/crafting the weapons, you’ll get there with an acceptable weapon. Then, there’s skill in knowing what blessings and perks you need to make an ideal weapon.

I get it, sometimes you get shafted on the roll for the weapon. But that’s where you gotta have the wisdom to either go against the grain of the weapon or refine it to what it’s pointing at to do?

If you keep trying to make a headshotting weapon in a weapon that’s not meant to headshot, yeah, you’ll get cruddy weapons. If you have a weapon that is designed to be a crit monster and you lean into that, it’s gonna do it better.

See what I mean?

To borrow your gambling analogy loosely: in gambling you can’t change the result of your roll. You can’t place your bets on red 89 (is that even a thing in that spinny game you see in the spy movies?) and the dice roll and you don’t get red or 89. You can’t go in and say “Well I have this dice saved that let’s it be red.” You do that with DT. And again mentioning the perks that you didn’t even have to learn any of them, they were all given to the playerbase for free. Pretty cool mitigation for bad luck.

Strictly speaking, should the title not be:

Forgetting not from whence we came?

Sorry. I read it and it just feels like it needs a from @Cerebrophage :wink:

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Probably! Thanks!

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Not really, Hadron helps you change perks but there’s no coming back from a poor base. If Hadron truly had pity in her cold metallic heart she would Break the Locks :mechanical_arm:

Ahhh, the gambler’s fallacy. Hard pass. It was hard enough not to do exactly that despite setting a budget in the first place, and I’m by no means an avid gambler. Just human.

A human with what they consider an eye for efficient & effective UI design no less – so it bothered me more than most to subject myself to the menial task of buying and selling so many junk items!

It just smells to me of a system neither fully thought out or made with particular affection to the player – in addition to a certain lack of respect for their time. The way the whole list jumps when you remove one. Delete one, and the next one selected is often off-screen. Buying – click, wait, click, wait, etc. I was shocked at how much time it actually took to spend my hard-earned sheckels. And then I had another bore-chore ahead of me with removing the clutter. There’s no joy.

And this wasn’t for the perfect base mind you, this was baby’s first chainsword after hitting level 30. With the amount of ~300s I rolled, I got to wondering if there was a VT2-esque limitation on the upper bounds of power levels. In my opinion, there are enough random stat allocations to keep it spicy if ole Brunt would only provide 350+ bases.

Suffice to say, it was an utter turn-off for me.

The point stands, and it wasn’t an attack on you. Just my reflections after engaging with Brunt’s armoury. Hence, “rant”.

I was simply interested in floating a different point of view after you provided your calculations. The emotional reality compared to the cold calculus, as it were.

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I’m glad she doesn’t. Could you elaborate on “Poor base?”

This might interest you:

So, if I am to understand you correctly, you had issues in selling, then you didn’t pay attention to how the next item was populated, and when it did it did it off screen, and you didn’t think to adapt your methods? That was the first thing I did to make a more streamlined experience. But this is besides the point.
For example, FS removed that rapid clicking nonsense we had to do with perks. Remember? We had to keep rolling (and rolling) to get the perk we wanted. They got rid of it because it was a dumb choice. They can change their UI when things are dumb. I think this leans on the question of where it is on their list of priorities when there’s mods out there that can handle this.I think It’d be silly to think that a company wouldn’t consider leaving it to moders for people who REALLY wanted to fix it.

I get that. I should be more careful when considering people’s testimonials. However, I was coming from a point of frustration that I keep hearing these stories of bad luck, and everyone has different bars for what bad luck is. I am left scratching my head wondering why people don’t change their expectations, and then I am reminded by more toxic members that by doing that I am “Simping” or some other such nonsense. I think placing realistic expectations is not beyond the scope of what’s expected in any game. Otherwise, everyone would get what they want all the time, I think and then there’s no pursuit. It becomes stagnant gameplay, there’s nothing quirky to work with. I have tons of fun niche quirky weapons that I love playing with… I’ve been down this road before. I’ll elaborate if you want, but I’ve said it so many times that I’m not sure whether or not you’ve heard that spiele.

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