The 4.3/4.4 Changes to Shade's Ult Are Bad – Analysis and Suggestion

Thanks for the write up, 100% agree. It boggles my mind how clumsily Shade’s issues have been handled ever since CoM went live with 40% CDR.

If this isn’t resolved for good any time soon, I think, someone’s gotta make a mod to fix this, sadly.

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I dont like the changes either.
Maybe the ults need some kind of change, but removing the crit when striking from the shadows with cloak of mist and cloak of pain is a boring change imo.

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I’d appreciate a system wherein the small talent boxes have a brief generalized description of the function, with an addition of a button that allows players to open more in-depth descriptions.

Even if all descriptions were updated, the small size of the UI severely limits the available info. At my current hours I still have no blasted idea what half of the talents actually do. This becomes even more apparent when new careers are released and proper guides are not yet available. The wording “greatly enhances” really does not tell me anything.

And what talent is this exactly?

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Thanks for pointing that out, the talent I meant is “Indiscriminate Blast,” “Return on Investment” was the old name iirc.

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There are already ‘large’ description boxes on mouse over. Nine lines here to describe Bulwark. It’s obviously not a matter of space.

talentbox

I understand that things are meant to be kept short and crisp, players shouldn’t overthink everything and get the impression of reading a detailed manual or a research report. Many probably don’t even care as much. But I genuinely dislike when essential effects are not mentioned. Like the 25% CDR on Indiscriminate Blast or other hidden base stat increases (WHC/Shade +5% crit chance).

Inconsistencies with wording are another annoying thing. Huntsman and FK have ‘auras’ that give buffs, Engineer ‘increases X of nearby allies’, and Waystalker’s Rejuvenating Locus just globally ‘affects the other members of the party’. Of course, it’s the same mechanic but it’s described differently and confuses those who read descriptions closely. What’s even worse, it can make people second guess the functionalities of mechanics: Does an ‘aura’ have a larger AoE than just a ‘nearby’ buff?! Interestingly enough, the AoE of those career passives is different IIRC - but whatever.

There is no consistent glossary in regard to talent descriptions either. Games like Path of Exile also don’t tell players everything (and have vastly more complex things to describe than VT) but it is known that, for instance, wherever the keyword ‘recently’ is used it definitely refers to a time period of four seconds. But Grinding Gear Games, too, are inconsistent when it comes to ‘nearby’ for example.

In VT, there is ‘vastly increased combat potency’ (Radiant Inheritance) whatever this means (I know what it means because people checked the code). There is ‘increases stagger power’ (Staggering Force), ‘increases the strength and range of the push’ (Repel) and ‘increases stagger effect’ (Crunch!). There is also ‘power’ almost everywhere but Virtue of the Discipline mentions ‘power level’ for whatever reason. All of this not only hides numerical values but it also diminishes the accuracy and/or reliability of the talent descriptions.

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I think the Cloak of Mist + Vanish combo from before would’ve been absolutely fine if the cooldown were higher. In comparison, WHC has one talent that gives him 6 seconds of instakill crits on a 90 second cooldown. Shade needs two talents to enable the backstab instakill playstyle, AND only gets 4 seconds. But on the other hand her ult can also be used as a safety/panic ult in tough situations. I think this balances out pretty well. What was unnacceptable is shade having this every 30 seconds. It should’ve been 60 seconds (without any CDR at all) and then it would’ve been fine. If anything Cloak of Pain should’ve had some cooldown reduction to be on tandem with Grail Knight’s ult, since right now Cloak of Mist is significantly higher boss dps than Cloak of Pain (it’s more damage per ult and also lower cooldown).

In addition, as it is now, if playing with the moonfire bow/javelin the level 20 talent row is pretty much useless, and that absolutely needs to change.

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Completely revert the changes to Cloak of Pain, Shadowstep and the base ult.

  • That means adding the guaranteed crit back to the 2nd charge of Cloak of Pain and allowing all of the above ults to crit with a ranged attack if they use said ranged attack to break stealth (since you waste the melee damage boost when you use ranged).

I agree with the OP. All the recent shade nerfs regarding cloak of pain need reverting.

I dont understand why other talents should suffer because of a clueless balance dev who decided cloak of mist was a good idea to add to the game (It was never a good idea)

Also remove or change the talents herald/vanish and change blood fletcher to 5/10% ammo back per backstab instead.

Shade deserves her 20% dodge talent back too.

Edit: Misspelled one word.

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This, in my opinion is long due a fix as well.

I haven’t played shade enough in recent times to offer an opinion on this, but it’s not the first time FS changes something which has not been working as intended, and wording aside, they’re just saying the old working was never intended to begin with.

The ironic thing is, Double-shotted was actually “fixed” with 4.4 as it removed the ability to trigger it twice (or sth. along those, I did not play Bh in 4.4.0.0).
4.4.0.1 then “Fixed Saltzpyre’s (Bounty Hunter) ‘Double-Shotted’ Talent not reducing cooldown on headshots.”

Regarding Shade and abilities not working as intended, my original post argues that even if it never was intended, it made for a better game and removing these interactions now (after they have been working like this for several years!) is only harmful to the class and the game as a whole.

Consequently, regardless of the reasons, the actual changes are unequivocally bad.

Morever, even when looking at the reasons stated by FS, they are simply not valid arguments - these mechanics have become an integral part of the game, very much like being able to block while reviving was never an intended mechanic.
Still, that was accepted and even officially implemented, and many of the other examples listed in the post specifically because they improved the gameplay.
Just like these “unintended” mechanics that were part of Cloak of Pain, Cloak of Mist, Shadowstep and the base ult - they make for a better game with more nuance, depth and enjoyment.

Then I wasn’t wrong! I thought I remembered it, but then, seeing as it’s there and people didn’t know about it I convinced myself I might have imagined it.

As for the Shade, I think you might be right, I just haven’t played her much lately.

The change in 4.4 wasn’t that it removed the ability to trigger it twice, it was that it sometimes didn’t trigger at all. The times it did still trigger, it still triggered twice for 80% CDR total.

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Aye, thanks for clearing that up.

Evidently, Double-shotted not working like its description advertises does not seem to be an issue, yet that very same argument is then used to justify negative gameplay changes to Shade’s ult talents - even though these changes still remain bad changes regardless of the reasons given.

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I’m still conflicted about the shade changes, but I definitely feel like double shotted has to go. It’s worse than inherited radiance in my mind. It gets to ludicrous levels while by itself (without any kind of cooldown) it would already offer twice the damage of the normal ultimates. Plus, I lost the count of the times I’ve been oneshotted by it, and that’s really no fun. :rage:
But I’m getting off-topic.

I know this isn’t really the topic of the thread, but if that’s how you feel there’s some absolutely incredible levels of bias involved. Double Shotted does precisely 1 thing well, and that is quickly ending a threat that may not even appear on a map to begin with. It requires headshots and also a conc pot to reach the point of actually trivialising a boss. In literally every other scenario it’s worse than Just Rewards, and TBH worse than most other ults period. Removing 1-2 threats with a 70 second base cooldown (even if you assume always getting headshots and having 40% knocked off that) is objectively not a terribly good Ult compared to the majority of the cast. When you miss a headshot it becomes one of the least impactful ults in the game for its cooldown. It’s a way too long cooldown to be a particularly good special sniper, removing 1-2 elites from a pack certainly does not trivialised a patrol or even close, it does nothing to get you out of a dense mixed horde.

To be clear, I agree the double proc interaction is bad and should go, but if you just remove that and give nothing in return, you’ll achieve nothing but change the meta to 100% Just Rewards overnight. There’s a reason Core rated BH as effectively F tier for DWONS content, currently he crutches on double shotted’s boss killing to have any kind of niche at all at higher level play. Just straight remove that while giving nothing back and he basically goes in the trash can.

Comparing it to Radiant Inheritance is incredibly insulting. An Ult talent that specifically trivialised one enemy type, requiring some skill no less as well as a potion to really shine, vs a buff that lets you easily trivialise every possible threat in the game with no other requirements other than left clicking in the enemy’s general direction, being equivalent to ~26 properties for 15 damn seconds. On what planet are these skills even vaguely comparable? I am genuinely bewildered.

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I know it’s a bit off-topic, but there’s also the issue with Shade where one of her three ult talents is actually detrimental and it’s generally better if you pick no talent at all.

I’m not saying RI doesn’t need to be toned down, or even removed. But as I said I really hate DS.
For one, I’ve never been killed by an ally using RI, and I’m honestly at the point where I seriously consider kicking BH joining my games mid-way through, unless I know them. I have never kicked them yet, because I don’t think it would be fair, but I’m thinking it and a good chunk of the times I regret I didn’t. So I figure you might say the bias is there. :stuck_out_tongue:
I’m intrigued by what you say though: I can’t see Just Reward take the place of the current Double shotted use. JR might be better for the majority of a run, but against monsters DS still deals twice the damage for virtually the same cooldown (actually, if only 40% is cutoff, it would be twice the damage for a lower cooldown, so I just can’t see it). 80% cooldown has to go, IMO.
Its current iteration completely trivializes bossfights.

Not really (and sorry for derailing the thread further). If you don’t have a very specific set of conditions and a team willing to play around you, you will accomplish absolutely nothing with double shotted. Good luck getting any value from it if the monster keeps getting knocked around by people shouting “Nyaaah!” or dunking explosives on it. If you miss once, you become irrelevant for that engagement. The BH career itself is in a terrible state right now imo, as the only thing it can do is spam DS, which requires a fairly hefty set of conditions and coordination in a game that has devolved more and more towards a free-for-all green circle hunt.

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Taking something away from a career because it is good at that while having obvious weakpoints isn’t a good idea. Careers that are good at everything may deserve nerf but BH just isn’t one as he lacks survivability, and by survivability I mean ability to have guaranteed survival and revive by pressing F like most of the others. Take monster/lord dps away from him, and you are looking at a worse WHC. Also we have so many tools to deal with monsters these days to call BH too good at what he is even supposed to be good at.

FF issue is a whole another thing as it’s not the problem DS alone has. Even if we are talking about the issue I would put up MB and crit Torpedo before talking about DS.

I’m more about changing that talent - and the insane FF it does - rather than removing an asset for BHs.
If it indeed is a bad talent most of the times and the specific set of conditions it requires is indeed that rare than it’s just bad. But I don’t agree with the last part.
It’s in my black list because (together with having killed me a bunch of times - apologies for repeating, but it’s better to have a dead BH in your team than one doing TKs, intentionally or otherwise) it’s one of those talents which trivialises boss fights, and together with a few others (used to be shade, I’m not sure right now due to her nerfs) causes all the fuss about “bozzez too ez, lulz” when they are fine challenges when you haven’t got over the top DPSs.

Besides, I run almost exclusively into BHs who run DS over the other options, which is a clear sign that talent needs to be balanced, one way or the other.

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