Talents which have not been adressed by BBB, personal list

The BBB has been great, and is continuing to be great, but i still had some personal talents/builds which i have my questions by and would like to see adressed in this BBB. while fs is doing such a good job.

I’m not gonna propose changes to these, otherwise it will be an endless discussion on what the best way would be to change or fix these. I’m not gonna stop anyone commenting on this tho, so feel free to propose your changes or ideas.

Kruber:

  • Walk it off: Gives 40% damage reduction to the entire party + temp hp. Personally think this is a very strong talent. Which kind of eliminates talent choice.

  • Ready for action: This removes too much, maybe if it didn’t remove temp hp or gave 40% less temphp it would maybe be more competitive with walk it off.

  • Master huntsman: Very huge rng as alot of players on these forums have already mentioned. Unless you are playing on low twitch numbers or something. But i think a talent shouldn’t be usefull purely on 1 optional gamemode.

Bardin:

  • Slayer’s level 10 talent row is a ‘no choice’ row. This isn’t automatically a bad thing, but personally i would like there to be a choice. (this is a very personal issue of mine, not really a bad thing)

  • Foe feller: Using 5% attack speed over cdr on reload or last resort seems like a lazy talent. It’s a bit like slayer’s talent above where you just take this if you plan to, not shoot alot with ranged, don’t wanna go melee only. There are probably players who use this very effectively and build for attack speed. not for me personally.

Kerrilian:

  • Waystalker: Multiple issues i have with waystalker: Strong ultimate; Low cdr; insane range regen; hagbane. One change to either one of those things could fix waystalker, but i don’t know what it should be. (i’m sure they shouldn’t nerf hagbane, as thats not the issue)

  • Shade Bloodfletcher: A High risk, high damage, melee assassin that has acces to ammo on backstab (which is easy to do) is just wrong. If Fatshark doesn’t want to remove bloodfletcher, atleast make it so that i cannot just spam lefclick on a bile troll’s back and get all my ammo back in a matter of seconds. The issue bloodfletcher enables is hagbane usage, which covers shade her weaknesses + DD’s Weaknesses. (again, hagbane is not the issue).

  • Cloack of mist on shade: Correct me if i’m wrong, but this doesn’t get used anywhere. If there are any shade main’s who are reading this, i would love to know a use for this talent. If a fatshark devs reads this and knows the pickrate of this talent, i would also be happy to know. Giving up your damage for more invis doesn’t seem worth it to me, personally.

  • Handmaiden invis talent: I know the opinions are pretty divided on this one on these forums, but this is just a personal thing i dislike, which i thought i should atleast mention again.

Victor:

  • Ultimate talents: - I shall judge you all: Good talent, but with the current row it’s just not worth taking i think.
    • Fervency is more of a personal issue i have with it. Being able to ult and light swipe a patrol to death (which shouldn’t be killable by just ulting once, maybe using potions and stuff, sure or 4 ults, not one) because of whc’s passive.
    • Unending hunt: should require more enemies hit, as it’s very easy to get the full refund.
  • Flense: Flense is currently more dps then deathknell, on hordes. Which doesn’t really make sense to me, as high skill or more effort should give you more damage then just attacking into a horde. If deathknell is meant to be higher dps then flense in single target, then i could see it staying like this.
  • Zealot’s damage affecting his ranged weapons.
  • Unbending purpose: Get’s outclassed pretty hard, unless i’m unaware of a specific +5% power bp.

Sienna:

  • Fire sword: High stagger, high damage, pretty big stagger area is already strong. Combine this with famished and i would dare to use the word, ‘op’. I don’t know what needs changing here, both the talent and the weapon are strong individually.

  • Volan’s quickening: As i’m a pretty big sienna fan, i would love to be able to choose a 3rd ult talent. It’s always burnout, even burnout outclasses kaboom in my opinion, but i know there are alot of sienna’s out there who enjoy using kaboom, so i’m fine so let it stay in the game for my fellow sienna’s.

  • Pyromancer: Having high ranged crit is fine, but having close to 100% Melee crits is not good, coming from a pyro main. It does allow for pretty fun melee builds on her, but i don’t know if it should still exist. tweaking it down or removing it might push me more towards playing unchained.


I have recently seen the question pop up if Bounty hunter ultimate is supposed to give back 80% cdr instead of 40%. I don’t have an opinion on this really, but i thought it would be good to include it, if it was an oversight.

Thank you for reading. Great BBB so far.

13 Likes

This was fixed months ago. It shouldn’t be refunding more than 40%.

So… Flense is pretty dang strong, but hordes should be the thing it’s strong against. You can only strike so many heads with the limits of cleave and attack arcs, but Flense puts the same bleed damage on everything you cleave through.

On the other hand, Flense is just as good versus single target enemies and doesn’t lose out to Deathknell except to hit breakpoints and against Chaos Warriors. Or, at least that’s how I think it’s supposed to work.

But I can’t argue that Flense isn’t exactly 1/2 of the reasons propelling WHC into the stratosphere of damage dealers.

3 Likes

I really hope they’re considering Waystalker’s last 2 rows. There’s barely any build variation there at all, as most of the Talents are awful or can’t compete with 20% CDR and Ammo on Special kill.

Yeah, I found he becomes too supportive with this. He’s already strong enough alone, without being able to give people 25% Crit Chance 2x per Horde.

2 Likes

I know it doesn’t refund 80% anymore. What i mean is that it’s easy to hit 10 enemies and get the 40%, sorry if it was unclear.

1 Like

Fair point, though I think if you were to increase the number of enemies that need to be hit, it would be nice if it gave a bit of cooldown per enemy, up to the maximum of 40% at 15 enemies or whatever number is decided for it, so it doesn’t become really all or nothing with that talent, and overly encourage you to just sit on your Ult till there’s high enough density.

2 Likes

I just think the cooldown is very strong and is very hard to ‘mess up’ (might miss it a couple times), even if you ult at every enemy pack you will get the full cooldown, which is basically a free 50% cdr (with using cdr property). Especially since it gives the full effects still. If we take a look at mercenary’s version of this, it has reduced cd on his stagger but he loses everything else (temp hp). Whc doesn’t lose his crit chance for the entire team + gets reduced cd + is very hard to ‘mess up’ when just using at every pack. Ofcourse mercenary’s talent is also not the good way to go, as otherwise it will just become a meme talent.

I don’t know if it should or shouldn’t be usable at every enemy pack and still get the cd back. You are correct if they, for example, increase the numbers hit to 20 it could be used not enough. So you idea of making it refund per enemy could be a good idea. If they do that i would like to see something like this: Hitting enemies with ult refunds 2% cd per enemy, up to a max of 15, if you hit 15 at once you get 5% extra. But i’m just thinking out loud, i’m not really sure, and to be honest i don’t think alot of players consider this op. (just a personal thing)

4 Likes

Well, the following part contains partially heavy nerfs, so I don’t think they will be very popular within the community :stuck_out_tongue:

I think the problem is the WHC’s super synergy between his active skill and his perk Killing Shot. I think the final row is completely fine. However, only if you make it so that Killing Shot is deactivated for the time Animosity is used. Then the first talent would be stronger as it increases the damage received of all enemies creating new breakpoints and the latter two would also still be strong but not as broken right now.

Stupid question: I shall judge you all says “enemies hit”. Does this only concern the taggable enemies like the original Witch-Hunt, or does it truly hit ALL enemies?

Fire Sword performs well on all three careers. Personally, I would are to say it overperforms slightly. But it is hard to tell what exactly to change here. Maybe slightly reducing the stagger? Or maybe fire dot only to the enemies which are also hurt by the primary attack? Because if i remember correctly than the fire dot damage in a larger radius, even more than what you cleave. Have to test again.

I would like to Fire Walk getting a longer cooldown in general -_-

I so support this. Pyromancer is her primary ranged-focus career. The crit bonus should not apply to the melee attacks. If it is on range alone, it would be pretty strong already. It would help defining her and Unchained’s identity more.

Support once more. Active skills should not be useable this often, at least not if they are so strong.

2 Likes

Those are indeed some pretty controversial suggestions.

I actually didn’t think of this, thank you for commenting. I’m gonna think about this some more, as it could potentially be a solution, without changing the talents around to much.

I shall judge you all gives tag damage to all enemies hit by the stagger, so like every enemy who get’s staggered by it should get the debuff, regardless if they are taggable or not.

Yes it’s indeed a very strong weapon on it’s own. I think the first heavy has very high cleave. I don’t think it’s the stagger as dagger has the same stagger profile i think? and that’s not as strong, simply because it has a smaller radius. But i don’t know, up to fatshark to figure this one out :slight_smile:

everyone always sleeps on Battle Wizard ;-;

1 Like

It’s because quick play is full of Battle wizard’s who use fire sword for 90% of the map and take out their beam once in a while to kill a boss.

I agree that bw is also ranged focused.

I just think it’s funny how Pyro has some of the best melee between the Sienna careers and it’s all because of her crit chance lol

6 Likes

She’s really good with the 1H Sword now they buffed the Crit damage and headshot damage.

You and I are enemies now.

More importantly, this would make the ult pretty bad. It would basically be worse than Huntsmen’s, which already light shots SV with the Longbow. There’s risk in trying to fight a patrol like this in melee, and it does take skill to perform.

Basically, if I had Riposte, I would purposefully not use the ult because of this change.

Edit: I’d also like to add that WHC doesn’t get any damage reduction, unlike a lot of other careers, even ones with lower health that end up with similar effective health thanks to their damage reduction. WHC can’t just face tank patrols or something insane like that.

8 Likes

Just doesn’t work that way man,

There’s a reason I don’t use it much. First of all its only 6 seconds and its Victor ONLY, so you’re not going to light swipe out a whole patrol no matter how hard you try. Sure you can get a few, but 6 seconds will not let you wipe out a patrol no matter how hard you try.

Secondly it doesn’t affect Ranged Damage so you can’t even use it for Pistol Spamming.

Don’t get me wrong its pretty good. But you can wipe out a lot more with the 40% return catching 10 or more in the Ult, and applying it to the whole party.

Again just doesn’t work that way man, and its not nearly as effective as you seem to believe.

You’re looking at wrong. Its not about numbers on paper at the end of the screen, its about the breakpoint. The point of doing damage in this game is to hit the breakpoint… which actually kills the mob.

Anything that you do not kill instantly is going to be swinging at you even if its dying.

Ergo why Deathknell is actually used over and above Flense. Deathknell puts you over the breakpoint, killing it instantly.

Flense does not. Ergo why people are telling you Flense is not as effective as you think and is primarily effective on Hordes… not Elites.

Sure it can work… after he swings at you a few times… but Deathknell is an instant kill. So unless you suck at headshots, You’re better off hitting the breakpoint.

Its not about the damage numbers at the End Screen of the map.

2 Likes

T_T

Do you use Riposte much during the active skill anyways. The duration is 6 seconds. First second enemies are staggered, second 2 and 3 you are in the offense. Then maybe you have to block. But normally, you are in the offense during the active skill. Waiting for an enemy to attack so that you can block can take up to 2 seconds.

Would it really change so much? With the increased crit damage I don’t think there is much difference in fighting the horde, especially if you chose I shall judge you all and Deathknell. They die with or without Killing Shot. Chaos Warriors are not influenced anyway. What you would lose is that you can left-click Stormvermins, Raiders and Bestigors which all would still take increased damage.

Would it be better if only heavies could deal the Killing Shot during the active skill? I just don’t like the idea of left-clicking half a patrol to death (2.5 attacks/s for 6 seconds = 15 potential deaths, realistically lower).

It’s just a personal issue i have with it. I know you lose team crit. I also said 40% cdr is also very strong. Like i don’t like the lingering flames talent on battle wizard, purely because it’s cheesy and it doesn’t actually need you to engage in the gameplay. Is it too strong dmg wise? Ofcourse not, it takes a long time to kill things. But it’s possible and that’s what i don’t like. I understand Whc cannot kill an entire patrol, but he can kill alot, but maybe that’s the direction fs wants whc to take. As i said, i’m just pointing out personal issues with some talents.

Yes as i mentioned, deathknell is better dps against single target and kills an enemy instantly. With flense you have to light swipe it a couple times, and it will die in a couple of seconds, this however is only if you look at it on paper. In a game where elites come with hordes, you have to headshot elites in mixed hordes consistently ( and even if) otherwise flense is just the better option. Flense hits multiple targets and lets enemies bleed, you might not notice it’s impact immediatly, but on higher density difficulties or high cleave weapons, flense is insane, and it’s not only a minor difference, it’s actually alot. I might even go and test to see how much faster deathknell actually is to kill an elite over flense.

Edit: something i forgot to add. I’m not saying 50% hs is bad, it’s a very good skillfull talent, i’m just wondering why flense is better for less ‘skill’ required. Yes deathknell oneshots certain elites on hs, but if i can clear a horde and kill elites meanwhile that’s very strong in my opinion. The only thing is like you said, elites are there longer which can result in more overheads from them.

WS talents range from meme to extremely good.
But her talents have little melee synergy.
She is supposed to be the ranged queen though.

HM - stands on a good place. Talents have some real variety and buil possibilities.
Ult needs a complete rework though.

Shade - I have no issue with bloodfletcher, since shade is squishy, I think it’s ok for her to sacrifice the two other talents to this one (all those on that row are pretty good).
Ult was already a bit of a joke since they removed the CDR and capped damage, and now with GK its a real shame.
I agree that there is no real choice when it comes to ult talents.

2 Likes

No, I don’t use Riposte during Animosity. My point is that Riposte would be similar in kill speed to Animosity at that point. I get a faster kill rate on an SV patrol using Riposte than I do by using crit partial’s on the Rapier because of the crit stagger. The push attack is much faster than push - partial charge. The only thing that can make Riposte slower is team stagger. And Riposte is not op.

I Shall Judge You All is pretty trash on patrols. You can already re tag after killing a tagged target. It’s really only ever useful on hordes, and even then it’s bad.

Killing Shot doesn’t work on the high Chamon weaves. This makes WHC pretty worthless here. Slayer, GK, BH, Huntsmen, BW Bolt, Dual Daggers Shade/Handmaiden, any ranged careers and Mercenary etc. all easily out dps WHC at that point.

I’d be fine with WHC’s tag not affecting the damage allies do. I’d be fine with WHC not having any team buffs at all.

If the team lets you do it and doesn’t stagger them. Which they won’t, they want that juicy damage dealt too. It’s realistically six, sometimes eight (for SV). It’s possible to make it six CWs but it’s likely only going to be three or four. That’s not much for a minute and thirty seconds cooldown.
Shielded SV can easily lower the tally to three to five.

I see a beautiful flurry of death skillfully delivered with precision, every blow landed just before an enemy lands their own. Doing this is dangerous, but rewarding.

Compare that to FK going brrrr brr I’m a battering ram and then using two handed hammer lights to two shot bodyshot SV and Bestigors on Cata. Or even RV using their ult and throwing a bomb. Or Mercernary with one strength potion and the Greatsword.

What needs nerfing is Flense, Cast Away and Killing Shot applying to distant ranged attacks, and potentially even the boring team buffs.

The worse part is, is there are already builds to make the Rapier oneshot headshot full charge Bestigors and SV on Cata. So it wouldn’t even be that useful if it was nerfed that way.

1 Like

Fully charging a headshot or light attacking with rapier and oneshotting are big differences tho. Using potions to kill a big groups of elites is also a bit more fine then just an ult. For what it’s worth i consider ultimates who can trivialize patrols too strong. 2 bodyshots with a 2h weapon is fine in my book.

I agree that removing his passive would make whc pretty bad, but the idea of adelion is that it would only be removed during a certain part, not be removed entirly. So it would be difficult to compare it to weaves.

This is ofcourse a discussion which would be hard to have if we don’t have the person’s baseline.
This is also purely discussing the ult talent in a patrol scenario, normally you don’t pull a patrol, your ultimate should be ready every horde, which makes whc be able to delete the elites in 1 wave. Rangers free bomb can also do that every wave and for me, personally that’s strong. I understand the design choice of this talent, and it removes the team their crit chance so it does have drawbacks. I’m mostly concerned about i shall judge you all not being used, and thats mostly because it gets overshadowed. Fervency is not the only one overshadowing, but it’s in the same category as i shall judge you all, as it’s increased damage, and if you can kill all the elites, trash isn’t that important to have more dmg against. (Unless i’m missing a i shall judge you all usage)

I Shall Judge You All let’s you one shot Marauders with some of the Satlz’ weapon’s light attacks. That’s the only thing I know of that it can do against hordes.

The 2h hammer is one of the safest weapons in the game, and you’re okay with it two shotting on one of the safest careers because it’s two handed, with an ult that has a thirty second cooldown?

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu