Talent and Weapon combos that lead to unnaturally high ammo sustain

Multiple nonrange careers are capable of extreme ammo sustain rivaling or even succeeding their range counterpart.

(Suggested solutions at the bottom)

Most problematic:

WHC - 20% crit + always prepared + Volley Crossbow/Repeater Pistol
(+ Wild Fervor + Animosity)
HM - 20% crit + Quiver of Plenty + Swiftbow (+ Power from Pain)
Merc - Helborgs Tutelage + Black Market Supplies + Repeater Handgun

Honorable mentions:
Zealot - smite + Volley Crossbow
Shade - 20% crit + repeater crossbow/Swiftbow (+guaranteed crit from infiltrate)

An ammo pool of 30-49 will lead to 2 ammo per crit with scrounger
An ammo pool of 50-69 will lead to 3 ammo per crit with scrounger
An ammo pool of 70-89 will lead to 4 ammo per crit with scrounger

Quick formula for effective ammo:
Max ammo / (1- crit chance*rounded(ammo per scrounger proc)

To show how effective these combos are i did the math below.

WHC:

VXBow + 20% crit:
45/1-0.2*2 = 75 effective ammo

VXBow + Always Prepared + 20% crit:
59/1-0.2*3 = 147,5 ~ 147 effective ammo

RP + 20% crit:
40/1-0.2*2 = 66.67 ~ 66 effective ammo (considering no altfire used)

RP + Always Prepared + 20% crit:
52/1-0.2*3 = 130 effective ammo (considering no altfire used)

HM:

Swiftbow + 20% crit:
50/1-0.2*3 = 125 effective ammo

Swiftbow + Quiver of Plenty + 20% crit:
70/1-0.2*4 = 350 effective ammo

Merc:

Repeater Handgun + Helborgs Tutelage (~20% crit):
40/1-0.2*2 = 66,67 ~ 66 effective ammo

Repeater Handgun + Helborgs Tutelage (~20% crit) + Black Market Supplies:
52/1-0.2*3 = 130 effective ammo

Of course mileage may differ, as not every crit shot necessarily hits an enemy and procs scrounger, but his is all without even considering pseudo random distribution and talents/passives like Call out Weakness (5%), Wild Fervor (5%), Animosity (25%), and Power from Pain (5-25%) that increase crit chance (and therefore effective ammo) even further.

With the duration increase to Power from Pain, HM can have on demand 45% crit chance without assistance of another teammember.

This pushes her to a level, where she on average GAINS 0.8 ammo per shot.

Same goes for WHC with Animosity (albeit less ammo and for a shorter timeframe with long CD)

I thought about multiple solutions for this problem. (Internal CD on scrounger, scrounger calculates from base ammo, changing ammo, crit limit on range, etc.)

The only one i found that wouldn’t negatively affect other careers in their damage and/or ammo efficiency is this:

  1. Replace all three + % ammo talents.
  • it creates rediculous high synergy with high crit and scrounger.
  • They let these careers creep into range career territory, while still being superior in melee.
  1. Animosity and Power from Pain only affect melee crit chance.
  • this disables WHC/HM from reaching crit breakpoints where they actively start generating ammo.

I think both are needed.
What do you guys think? good/bad Ideas? Or am I overreacting on this topic?

3 Likes

Yeah, we better don’t start nerfing based on statistics.
Also, if you use those weapons on WHC in Cata, you’re wrong.

I agree with your post. It’s not a popular opinion to hold tho, so i doubt you Will get alot of support.

2 Likes

Erm, why not? Statistics and the underlying math are what make talents/weapons/stats good or bad in the first place.
By examining their values and interactions you find out how and why certain builds are far better than others and balance accordingly.

The math doesnt lie. As soon as a weapon hits 30 ammo, scrounger becomes exponentially stronger, the more ammo you have, or the more crit chance you can get.
These 3 careers arent designed for range combat, yet they gain fighting levels with certain weapons that far surpass what they were designed for.

What do you mean im wrong if I use these weapons on WHC in cata?
(Maybe it‘s a word missing, but I cant make sense of that sentence)
Do you mean it‘s wrong to take them because a different weapon is overall better?

I’ma say yes for the following reasons

These are all pretty sub-optimal and borderline meme builds

3 Likes

Don’t think WHC, has that much of a problem in his ammo sustain, considering repeater pistol and volley crossbow are the worse ranged options. On top of that, always prepared is usually the weaker option for most loadouts.

Focused mostly on WHC, but i think this goes for the rest of the
mentioned careers as well.

1 Like

I know it‘s not popular (which nerf isn‘t)

It might be that FS agrees though, but wasnt aware until now.

If those weapon/talent combinations would perform anywhere near the top we can talk again. Right now with how mediocre (at best) they perform its not really an issue.

Okay, to be honest Zealot - Smite was only added as a completionist measure.
It is suboptimal and would require you to do 4 shots and one volley for best performance.

Merc - Helborgs Tutelage without the 30% ammo is somewhat the same. It just showcases the huge effective ammo jump you make with the extra ammo talents.

Tutelage isnt even needed if you prefer the power or cleave.
30% ammo and 15% crit will still more than double your shots between crates/ammobags.

Slap 10% skaven and chaos on the repeater and you 3shot bodyshot SV/Packmaster and 2 shot bodyshot all other specials on cata.

That is far from suboptimal IMO considering you probably run high crit for SS uptime anyway. If you are confident in your dodgegame and dont need DR It‘s a valid choice.

Similar scenario with WHC. To make best use of his passive you want high crit. He can reach 3 shot bodyshot Breakpoints on most and 6 shot bodyshot on SV. Depending on distance a full volley in the body is fairly easy. (Or go singleshot for the head. Its a 1/5 pr 1/4 chance to instakill on range.
On ult he even generates for a short time or has a ~ 50/50 chance of instantly slaying anything at range.

Now to Handmaiden:

Didnt get to test her yet, as both her crit talents dont affect range in BBB, but she is the most broken of them all:

Swiftbows armor damage (on charged) got almost doubled.
Cleave got doubled.
Unlike Merc/WHC basically her whole talent tree synergizes with range. (instead of 5% crit you can take 15% power. Lvl 20 talents give you 15% attack speed or another 10% damage)
Power from Pain is 15 seconds making it 100% uptime if you find the time to rush through enemies.

If you go 25% power, and like 10 or 20% armor you should reach 2/3shot charged headshot on SV/bestigor.

Everything else except CW is just a matter of holding LMB. You have more than enough ammo sustain and can yeet through a horde real quick to start generating ammo if you feel low.

To be clear, I couldnt test her, but the numbers should add up once the talents affect range again and turn her into a selfyeeting gatlinggun.

I barely play cata so I cant predict how usefull she really is there. But on Legend im sure it would be a viable build.

Repeater Pistol and WHC is a non issue even with full ammo sustain.
It doesn’t do enough damage to warrant anything, and WHC cannot use the Charged Shots the way BH can so even with ammo sustain it works more like the Kerillian Swiftbow in the hands of WHC. Ergo… no real issue because the damage is too low.

Volley… that’s a different story… when the Penetration was at the original Patch level combined with the new Ammo increase, it was a problem because the Penetration combined with Ammo could allow WHC to rack up an enormous kill count along with Ammo sustain ON TOP of the melee kill count which was already really good.
That is no longer the case since they Choked off the Penetration into the Horde.

At this point Volley is balanced on WHC because the Penetration does not allow enough kills with the weapon before reload so even with Ammo sustain it does not overly unbalance the Range Kill + Melee Kills combined totals.

I would prefer it if the Ammo was dropped below the sustain point and the penetration is reverted to the original as it makes the weapon more effective but does not allow the same sustain with Scrounger… But as the Volley is now it is not unbalanced with WHC.

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