Survivalist Aura nerf is wrong for multiple reasons [UPDATED]

I’ll refrain from posting my scoreboards and just rest well knowing that there’s certain playstyles with a skill floor

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It would have been easier to directly write “gitgud”, less elegant but more concise… obviously I respect your opinion, you’re free to think it’s a matter of skill

My point was to say that random promotional phrases are not a valid source to support any thesis.
And even if 90% melee was really possible it doesn’t mean that the opposite must also be possible. Ranged weapon are usually much stronger than melees so they must be restricted in their use. It’s balancing 101

They are different games, of course there’s similarities but that’s about it, by your reasoning Darktide and left4dead are the same game “proportionally”

That’s your opinion, many disagree, seems the Devs do too, maybe they will c̶a̶v̶e̶ i̶n̶ t̶o̶ t̶h̶e̶ c̶r̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ “v̶e̶t̶e̶r̶a̶n̶ m̶a̶i̶n̶s̶” r̶e̶q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶s̶ l̶i̶k̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶y̶ d̶i̶d̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ p̶a̶s̶t change their mind in the future and at least partially revert this nerf but +double ammo veteran is not balanced.

Why you have to assume that the “shooter character” (not accurate definition for my opinion) has to be shooting all the time? Veteran focus is to make ranged weapon stronger than what they normally are, doesn’t mean he has to be even able be played like if this is call of duty…
And let me add this, since I have seen it millions times.
BuT ZeaLoT CaN AlWayS UsE hiS MeLeE… That’s not the same thing. Engaging in melee it’s decisevly more risky than doing it in range. Part of the skillset of the zealot is being able to understand when to engage in melee and when not the same as in veteran skillset should be to understand when to shoot or not.

Thats hard to comment at this point without bringing the discussion in the skillusse, wich i consider l unproductive. Maybe you had been unlucky with exceptionally high concentration of gunners in the map, found little ammo pick up, maybe your weapon has not efficient perks, or you can thinker with the build to make it more effective.

I keep saying that:

  1. it wasn’t a random promotional phrase;
  2. so, if your point here was just to clarify that my phrase was random and promotional, why did you post that image which does not deny what I’m saying… on the contrary, it confirms it: shooter part in fundamental;
  3. confirmed that shooting is as important as melee… if you tell me that a character who plays 90% melee is fine, but the pre-nerf Veteran is not, you are confusing the reality with your personal and subjective vision of the game

No, they aren’t that different. The image you posted say it. Darktide is build on the legacy of Vermintide… the gameplay at the base it’s the same. Then they continue: “Introduces intense gunplay”

So it’s pretty fair to say that, in Vermintide, a melee centred game, you can shoot ad every special, elite and ranged threat… in Darktide, a game with intense gunplay, you cannot (Psyker still can)

Sure, I have my opinion as you have yours… but seeing how many threads against the nerf there are and how many like they get… I would say many agree, not disagree

Lol? Apart that’s subjective… because it’s a game and you don’t have the power to decree that shooting all the time is wrong (while melee all the time is fine), many players instead argue that would be a cool thing… anyway I just said I should be able to shoot at what my Stance highlights

Then I clearly added “Melee has always been fundamental to kill hordes, resist to enemy pressure, defend yourself”

And I would be happy because, FOR ME, when someone arrives to the “gitgud” part, it’s because the ideas are end

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If you want to have validation form the phrase that this game is “shooter” then you must accept other statement about having a balance between shooting and melee. Shooter part is fundamental, 90% shooter is not.

No that’s you that’s fixated on your own personal view of the game and trying to convince others to change the game for you at that.
And I haven’t acknowledged a 90% melee is fine, the difference is that playstile is a burden to the team, while infinite ammo veteran is the main character of the game.

Built on the legacy, not a sequel, there is a reason why this game is called “Darktide” and not “Vermintide 3 in space”.
They are different games that share some similarities.
Mainly because of reused assets and the Warhammer world. Hardly something new in the game industry, just look at Fromsoftware or Ubisoft. Try to say that dark souls and Bloodborne are the same game.
There are multiple differences in the mechanics and the design. Stop hanging on Vermintide. Darktide is his own thing. It promises intense gunplay and it absolutely delivers it, and if you don’t think so then I will start to think that you are arguing in bad faith.

And in those same threads many like are supporting the nerfs, as i mentioned those self proclaimed “veteran mains” are extremely vocal every time veteran receive a little tone down, and at some point developer mostly cave in partially reverting the nerf so don’t loose hope.

Well yes, that is subjective. And i never tried to push this vision on others, but you are pushing your subjective idea that veteran should have access to “infinite” ammo.
I remind you that my original post in this thread could be recapped in: thanks devs now that there is less ammo the game is better.
You disagreed and i explained my point why the game is better. You want to have and extremely range focus playstile, it’s still available to you with lasguns and most autoguns. Apparently you are sad because your fun exe stance build it’s less effective now, you are focusing too much on your build and not the big picture.
With this nerf the veterans is the same strong, just more restricted, incentivising creative playstile and rewarding correct decision-making. With the previous version mindless “if it moves i shoot it” was the way to go. Good for the ego of the veteran player bad for the game overall.

The Veteran never reached 90% shooting. At most 60-70%. Considering that Darktide is 50% melee and 50% ranged… and that there are characters wich are 80% melee and 20% ranged… a Veteran 30% melee and 70% ranged was really fine

Of course I have my personal point of view as you have yours. But if I’m trying to convince others, the same you’re doing

Anyway developers themself said the ranged part is fundamental… and literally you you’re complaining about the fact that Veteran was 90% ranged (in your opinion, of course, to me it’s false)… but you never said anything about characters that could very well be 90% melee

I wont discuss on that, it’s like you’re saying “The Sun is green”

It’s written on paper by the developers, the base gameplay is the same, there are an infinite number of elements in common… free to keep your idea, but I won’t waste any more time

Apart that counting the people pro and the people against, it’s something you started… I don’t really care, butbthe people against the nerf are many more

Apart from that you completely left out the point where I explained that the Veteran didn’t use the melee weapon just to defend himself… but I never said it must necessarily have infinite ammunition. Even before the nerf he didn’t have them

Still completely doable.

No one ever said that it wasn’t

What should I say about it? I don’t think there is one designed to be, objectively, if one wants, you can refuse to fire a shot for all the mach, it’s possible because you have nothing to prevent this behaviour, you are just contributing much less to the team.

Except you are asking for more shooter gameplay with the veteran.

This feels like dodging because of lack of arguments. I thought I argued quite clearly my thesis even offering a very valid example of a similar situation. I explained why there are a lot of similarities but they are only on the surface. If you dig deeper you find a lot of differences, to quote some: Stagger mechanics are vastly different, weapon design vastly different, character health system vastly different. We can open a different thread and have discussion over there if you want. And by all means if you have this written statement from developers saying that Vermintide and Darktide are basically the same thing feel free to share.

Probably, because like I said, self proclaimed “veteran mains” are very vocal every time one of their toy is touched. Good for them. I must say this time the outrage is much less than when the Power sword was originally nerfed. Maybe a lot of them have graduated from crutches.

It would certainly trivialize a lot of content, it’s true that you never said that it must have it but you believe it would be inconsequential to the balance of the game if he had.

If you are referring to this statement:

Exept the killings of the horde, which is quite basic use of any melee weapon, this statement describes what looks a like a quite defensive behaviour.

My opinion is different

My opinion is different here too. There are builds wich are as melee centred as pre-nerf Veteran was ranged centred

Of course I did. To me, the pre-nerf version was more balanced and fun… but I understand your opinion is different

Free to think that, exactly how I think you dodged more points of what I wrote in this long discussion

That’s your subjective idea. May be be true as may be false… but if forum needs to harvest feedback, currently feedback are saying there are more unhappy people

It was simply to say that even if he had infinite ammo, it would still be forced to use the melee weapon in certain situations

However: infinite ammo, bad. Pre-nerf ammo (even just for the Veteran), good

Lol ok, I can fuse “defend himself” and “resist to enemy pressure” in one single point… still the meaning is the same. If a ranged character uses the melee weapon to kill hordes and defend itself, it’s more than enough

Feel free to point out whatever argument you think I dodged. I will be happy to elaborate more.

Care to elaborate more? What is a 80% melee centered build? Because i can’t imagine any gun that is only suitable to be used only in 20% of the cases. So unless you are forcing yourself to not use it even when it’s needed, I don’t see how come one can go 80%. Unless you mean 80% of the kills but that’s probably anyway all poxes an groaners on any build.

Absolutely true like it has always been with nerfs, especially on veteran. People band together to complain, while the complaints about survivalist being the strongest aura in the game have been spread far and wide and finally the developers listened.
Anyway just be a little patient and you will see the coodown being reduced to probably 3 seconds to make compromise.

So we return to the point of using the melee only as a defensive tool.
Veteran can make IAGs effective even against crushes.
So it seems to me that you want a playstile that it allows you never engage in any melee combat except groaners and poxwalkers. Am I correct? Fine here is my tip for you if you want that playstile now that veteran ammo sustain has been nerfed. (Even if I have the feeling that you will not be satisfied with it)
Don’t waste ammo on the melee elites when there is no pressure on the team. Let the “melee” characters handle them.
Pox hound and mutants are very easy to push/dodge and kill in melee so even if are clearing a horde, unless someone has been grabbed by them are very easy to handle in melee you will save a ton of ammo.

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It’s not my responsibility nor my interest to research the various points… the important thing is that the developers have read them

We must distinguish the design of the developers from the will of the individual player

Any Ogryn builds (obviously except the ranged branch) or for example revolver Zealot lead you to be as concentrated in melee as the pre-nerf Veteran was in ranged

Then it obviously also depends on the will of the player, because I can steal everyone the ammo pickups and as Zealot I can play emptying the revolver even in the hordes… so the % of ranged would increase (still not to 50%), but that’s a wrong way to play that character

I repeat: data vs subjective motivation. This is the feedback… then you are free to attribute your motivation to it

No. Also in pre-nerf Veteran you were forced to use melee both to kill hordes (in order to not finish the ammo) and to defend yourself. So more than enough

Lol if you think the developers read evry post.
Again you accuse me if dodging topics but when I confront you on your statement you dodge the confrontation.

So you think that the average zealot and ogrin use their ranged weapons only to kill the ranged enemies?
Because that’s the equivalent of what you want to do, shoot everything except hordes.

I think it’s quite easily observable that when there are nerfs people against it group up in contesting it.
Just look back in the forum. Also it’s quite straightforward, no nerfs, nothing to complain.
If Devs decided to put a nerf on veteran survivalist some reason must have been.

If you still don’t want to admit that this is a very defensive use fine. How you wish.
Nothing is preventing you to keep doing it.
Your real problem is that before you could enter the room, pop your ultimate, clear all the roamers by your self with your gun, repeat the next room until horde comes. I’m sure that must have been fun for you, probably not as fun for your teammates that at this point their job were just plasteel scavengers between the hordes.

They can do what they want. I’m here to give the feedback to them… if they don’t read, it’s not my fault

That because you see this as a weird challenge to have the last word, lol. If you ignored parts of what I wrote, doing it on purpose or by distraction, I don’t care and I don’t want to spend time on it

And, always in matter of wasted time, I won’t spend more on this point totally irrilevant to the game balance

I said more Ogryn and Zealot builds focus on melee as the pre-nerf Veteran focused on ranged

Again objective data vs your opinion

Killing hordes and as defensive tool… two distinct things and the fair role of the melee weapon for a ranged character. Then, if you want to complicate the matter to climb mirrors, go ahead

For one that doesen’t want to use the melee weapons you are the king of dodges.

nothing has changed, you keep speaking like pre nerf survivalist Veteran is a complete differnt thing from now, it got even a quite bit of buffs. And what do you mean focus on melee? Because they have a lot of talents that buffs melee wapons? So does have the veteran to buff his range weapon.

Give me the ojective data then.

Use whatever weapon you want for watever role you wish, it’s you not having fun not me. But if there is one here that is climbing mirrors and dodging disadvantageous conversations this is you.
You care more about your personal enjoyment of a very specific build than improving the game experience for all the playerbase

The proof you speak for “win” this discussion and not for game sake

I keep speaking but you keep ignoring. I said the %ranged of pre-nerf Veteran is the same as the %melee of current Ogryn and Zealot. So it was fine, in line with Darktide being 50&50

So none nerf was imho necessary

I disagree. For me the current state is worse and the nerf hit the most the wrong builds (like the Stance with ranged enemies highlighted

The forum is the data. Check the pro and the cons people

See, that’s a great example of your dodges. This point comes from you saying “Using only/too much the ranged weapon is wrong”… and it’s like the 10th I wrote thatveven the pre-nerf Veteran needed the melee weapon to defense and killing hordes… so it’s not “only” nor “too much”. It’s totally fine for a ranged career and in line with the game

And you keep changing speech

But no nerf to the talents that boost the damage of ranged weapon has been made, only now you need to be more mindful how you use it

It didn’t hit any build, it hit only the playstile to shoot everything that moves without care. Like the assail nerf hit the spam and get kills for free playstile.

I did actually, like a said a lot of people complaining against the nerf, some support it and some, agree that the nerf was deserved but it has been too much. For what I could see even the few in thread i counted 12 people rejecting the nerf like you, 6 people approving and 3 approving it but think it has been too much. For this sample i checked the opinions of the frequent posters in this thread excluding you and me.
That’s why i believe in the next patches there will be probably some buff in survivalist.

I believe that you are referring to this phrase.
I’m not dodging anything here. On all my point you went to contest that since you use it for killing hordes, therefore the use is not defensive.

Considering that you later state that the reason you kill hordes in melee is to save up ammo, i still see this as a defensive use but it’s arguing on semantic so i conciede in convincing you otherwise.
To go back to the original statement follow my train of thought for a moment.

  • What do you do with a weapon? Kill enemies
  • How is the best way to kill enemies? The fastest possible and without taking any damage.
  • Between a range weapon and a melee weapon which one has the least chance of me taking damage while i kill the enemy? Ranged, because i have no risk of the enemy hitting me back if he is melee and i don’t need to risk getting hit during the time that it takes me to reach him if he is also shooting.
  • Between a range weapon and a melee weapon which one has the highest DPS? Depends on the armour of the enemy.

Am i saying anything wrong up until now?
Now if the answer to that last question is always ranged one ranged weapon then we are in a pickle. What reason do i have to choose another weapon, even ranged if this one is better under every aspect?
To allow weapon and build diversity it has been chosen to restrict the use of certain weapons so they can remain powerful but to not oversimplify the game.
Btw Kantrael have still very ammo efficient why don’t you use one instead of a IAG in exe stance build?

Never talked about damage. I’m only speaking about ammo

Feel to think that, but how already wrote, I can’t agree

You started saying that more people think I’m wrong. On the contrary, there are more unhappy people

The original phrase was something like “If Veteran uses +90% ranged is bad”

And I answered: “Even before the nerf it used the melee weapon to kill hordes AND to defend (both)… so you used the ranged way less than 90%”

The last wall of text is just an unnecessary complication which, no offense, I don’t think it’s useful to discuss

If you use the melee weapon to kill hordes (even in a chill situation) and when you get surrounded to survive, you’re using it more than enough. Just this

You keep talking like the melee combat and the range combat are on the same level, i keep telling you that range is superior in most of the cases. Being able to have a super uptime of powerful ranged weapon means having an easier time, how can a bunch of rangers be even remotely threatening if they can’t touch you?

Everyone has the right to his opinion but if one doesn’t bring points to support it they can’t pretend that it must be taken seriously.

When ever did I say that?

Do i need to keep going?

I didn’t say like that but in your way of thinking can be accurate. To me the problem is if a veteran is able to easily dispatch 90% of the threats with ranged is bad.
I wouldn’t have any problems with veteran having virtually infinite ammo if it wasn’t so easy for him to kill so fast with the gun even rangers, maulers and crushers.
Like I said many times Kantrael lasguns are incredibly ammo efficient but no one uses them, i wonder why?

That long text is detailed explanation why guns are mostly superior to melee and why to maintain balance it’s important to have restrictions. I think it’s fundamental to have it discussed if we are deciding, ho much uptime should a weapon have.
If it’s too much text for you i can recap:
Imagine bringing a knife to a gunfight, who would win?

That’s your opinion. For me ranged gameplay needs skill to, something more, something less

With many builds the melee combat can be mindless, just spamming attacks with a crazy toughness regen

As the ranged fights can be skillfull. Shooting a crucial targets while you’re surrounded isn’t that easy

I did it

In a previous message. Unless I misunderstood your point… but you said there were a lot of people who think I’m wrong. And I just said “True, but there are more people who think I’m right”

No, lol, because you’re still adding your personal motivation. The only objective thing is unhappy people>happy people

After which you are free to give your personal explanation to this data

Didn’t you say that pre-nerf Veteran was bad because it could shoot too much?

Not only I disagree, but that’s off topic. In this point I said why Veteran, even pre-nerf, needed to use the melee weapon more than enough

I never said that it doesn’t require skills, I’m saying that is stronger.

“Zealot and Ogryn have melee focused talent trees, now that veteran lost a part of his ammo sustain it has also lost his mainly ranged focus identity” is this your arguments?

There is no personal motivation in anything, it’s a fact than when there are nerfs unhappy people pop up to complain, happened every time major nerfs happen.
Go look at the history of this forum. It’s also a fact that talks about survivalist being the best aura in the game has been there since the start of Darktide or you think that developers woke up one day and decided to nerf it for no reason?

Keep reading

So in a very simplistic way yes it’s bad, but in the context. Btw I never get a reply about you using a Kantrael lasgun in your “I need to keep shooting build”

It’s not off topic, if i say that veteran shouldn’t be allowed so much freedom with certain guns I have my reason and is in the game balance.
The same like you argue that there should be an all shooting character (other than the psyker) as a principle of the game.

I don’t agree that’s stronger. Ranged gameplay is well balanced and for me can exist a 30ranged70melee character as can exist a 70ranged30melee character

Lol, no, totally not a fact. There is no way to prove it. For example, after Battlewizard and Javelin nerf, there were more happy people than unhappy

The only facts are the feedback

And I’m saying this didn’t happen not even pre-nerf

And even if could, there would be nothing wrong. Even in Vermintide, a melee centred game, the ranged careers can dispatch the threats in ranged. A ranged career must do this

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