Stagger Breakpoints

I’ve made this thread because the flinching thread is a mess. This thread will discuss what the stagger breakpoints for each weapon should be on Cata, now that flinching is gone. I’ll start by covering some of Saltz’ melee weapons on SV, Maulers, Bestigors and CWs. I tested these with 10% vs Monsters, then 10% vs Armour (10% vs infantry for Maulers) and did not include elites in a pushing animation. If the power properties are not mentioned it was because I didn’t find any stagger breakpoints. I’ve likely missed something so please let me know I have or if I’m incorrect on any of these. I’ve included my own thoughts on what the breakpoints should be as well.

I didn’t do extensive testing for the Flail since it staggers CWs on bodyshot with the heavies (without any properties) anyway. It doesn’t rely on crit/headshot stagger.

Testing Resuts
The 1h Axe

I like that this staggers things so well, and now it’s actually useful. There’s a legitimate reason to use it now on WHC besides 10% crit chance. It still pays with a lack of horde clear, but it’s a specialists weapon.

  • Lights:
    • Bodyshot - Staggers SV out of non-overheads and non-attacking Maulers. 10% vs armour staggers non-attacking Bestigors. Crits bodyshot stagger CWs out of non-overheads and SV out of overheads (too much crit stagger strength imo)
    • Headshot - Didn’t find many breakpoints here.
  • Heavies:
    • Bodyshot - SV/Maulers out of non-overheads.
    • Headshot - Maulers/CWs out of non-overheads. SV/Bestigors with 10% vs Armour out of overheads.
The Rapier

Fair enough, the light spam was too much. Doesn’t stagger much atm. My suggested changes:

  • Light headshots stagger SV (or partials)
  • Partial charges headshot stagger Maulers/Bestigors (or full charges)
  • Full charge headshots/pistol special staggers CWs.
  • The pistol staggers a lot of things but it has a cooldown. I’d suggest making it so it can’t be used while blocking to balance it out.
The Falchion
  • L1 & 2:
    • Bodyshot - Nothing.
    • Headshot - Nothing.
  • L3:
    • Bodyshot - SV out of non-overheads.
    • Headshot - Didn’t find any stagger breakpoints.
  • Heavies:
    • Bodyshot - SV out of non-overheads and non attacking Maulers.
    • Headshot - Bestigors out of non-overheads. 10% vs Armour for CWs non-overhead attacks.

Should it’s l1 & l2 have a little more stagger strength? They feel fairly similar to the Rapier’s, but it’s heavies are good enough that I think the answer is no. It’s like a proper hybrid of the Axe and the Rapier.

The Axe and Falchion
  • The Falchion lights are the same as the Falchion’s, and the Axe lights are the same as the Axe’s.
  • The axe attacks bodyshot stagger SV out of non-overhead attacks. The first axe light is very fast. How do we feel about this? I think if it was slower/block cancelled and qq cancelled less well it would be fine.
  • Heavies:
    • Bodyshot - Surprisingly only non-attacking SV.
    • Headshot - SV out of non-overheads.
The Billhook
  • L1:
    • Bodyshot - Nothing.
    • Headshot - SV, non-attacking Maulers. If this didn’t block/qq cancel so well it would be fine but it’s pretty easy to abuse currently.
  • L2:
    • Bodyshot - Nothing.
    • Headshot - The push attack/light slash only headshot staggers non-attacking SV. I think this is fine considering it’s a multi headshot sweep.
  • H1:
    • Bodyshot - SV out of non-overheads.
    • Headshot - All tested elites out of normal attacks.
  • H2:
    • Bodyshot - All Mauler/SV attacks. Bestigors on non-overheads. 10% vs Armour lets it work on Bestigor overheads and CW non-overheads. This is too much imo. Make this headshot dependant?
    • Headshot - Same as above.
  • Special/Hook:
    • Everything of course. I’m of the opinion that the special should have a similar cooldown to the Rapier’s instead of a a stamina cost + require headshots on non SV elites without a power investment.
The Greatsword
  • Push attack:
    • Bodyshot - SV out of non-overheads, non-attacking Maulers.
    • Headshot - Non-attacking Bestigors/CWs. 10% staggers Bestigors/CWs.
  • Heavy:
    • Bodyshot - SV out of non-overheads.
    • Headshot - non-attcking Maulers and Bestigors. 10% power staggers Bestigors and CWs out of non-overheads.
  • I think the Greatsword is fine.

This also affects the Swiftbow quite heavily, so if anyone has any experience with that weapon and wants to pitch in, please do so.

In case anyone is interested in the original flinching thread, here’s the link: Flinching

5 Likes

Partial headshots staggering would be perfectly balanced imo

tbh I don’t think it should be capable of doing that at all

Agree with everything else in the post :^)

3 Likes
  • Rapier - partial headshots to stagger non-overhead Stormvermin; full charged headshots to stagger maulers, bestigors and chaos warriors.
  • Falchion looks good to me.
  • Billhook - L1 to stagger non-attacking Stormvermin on headshots; L2 to stagger non-overhead Stormvermin and maybe maulers; H1 and H2 get less stagger breakpoints or lower speed. Agreed with special hook.
  • Greatsword looks fine.
  • Axe & falchion - slightly higher animation delay for axe attacks.
2 Likes

Rapier

Given the thematics of the weapon, it’s damage profiles, and it’s historical use in the game, I’d counter by buffing the damage instead of the stagger.

I don’t agree with this. However, I think the partial heavy attack needs it’s base damage increased a bit. The reason we didn’t buff rapier in the mod was because it was so insanely safe given the mobility and control it had. I would prefer keeping it’s control low and making it’s damage higher. Just personal preference.

Here, I think the full charge should stagger elites (non CW) out of anything but overhead animations on headshot. It should have similar stagger to Bill Hook H2 on bodyshot. That lets you stagger out of some attacks but not all. But the partial charge shouldn’t stagger because its so fast.

I really like these changes. I get tired of seeing blockspyres lol.

Falchion

I want to say I was staggering SV w/ headshot light attacks yesterday on zealot. I think there is a BP, but it’s a lot of power to get there. Not positive.

That’s an interesting idea. Would the full charge also be buffed? I don’t know the exact numbers but I’d be concerned about spamming partials having higher dps than the full charge.
I think the point of the partial being so fast is so it can used to deal relevant damage in situations where other weapons would struggle to do anything other than lights. If it doesn’t have any stagger and doesn’t block cancel as well as the lights, even with it’s speed it becomes a very unsafe attack. The low amount of visual indication of when a partial becomes a full charge doesn’t help this.

I’ve always viewed the Rapier as the defensive version of the Dual Daggers. However, I feel that buffing it’s damage could lead to the two growing similar and having the same practical applications in game. I wouldn’t personally like this change, but I do see it as being a functional choice that would work. Any thoughts on how much it’s damage would be increased by?

I can definitely believe that. I tested the Rapier on Zealot and it doesn’t stagger them, but I didn’t test the Falchion.

Well, pre-flinch days, the rapier was supposed to be a high-finesse, high mobility, low control weapon. The heavies have just never really done enough damage to justify those aspects of the weapon. The light attacks are perfectly fine as-is, but the heavies simply lack enough base damage to make the weapon as strong as it needs to be. That’s why it doesn’t really do much outside of crit-fishing on WHC. The only defensive property the rapier has on DD is block angle and range. So I don’t think it needs to do quite as much dps as DD. But it shouldn’t be as far behind on headshot heavies as it is currently.

And yes, one would probably need to buff the full-charge heavies, but I don’t have the numbers here in front of me to give a definitive answer on that. As long as they do equal dps, you have the choice of a faster attack that’s more accessible and then you would have the slower attack that gives more control. So I think equal dps between partial and full would be reasonable.

Just don’t have the numbers. At 100% headshots, I would put it somewhere between DD dps and A+F dps. I just don’t know exactly what % increase it would be.

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