Shielded stormvermin

i concur. it sometimes is annoying how the shield break opening is reset because everyone’s spamming on the poor thing. BUT if u have everyone hitting it, the shieldvermin is toasted quickly anyway.

main issue people have with this guy is 1. not understanding how to combat the shield by opening it up with X attacks of a weapon, or 2. circling behind.

personally i love the design of SSV. you can build all your weapons for max dps and stuff, but with SSV you have to make sure you can deal with them somewhat. i used to have a big problem with them when i ran 2h hammer some time ago. not possible to solo 2 of them with a slow hammer previously.

Yes, I’m not talking about the in-game stamina property - rather a general real world notion - if you hit something hard enough for it to lose bearing and get confused and staggered, how can an additional blow restore all its strength back?

But even then - it’s not that big of a problem compared to the fact that they are all Agent Smiths who can dodge bullets.

You know, more people whacking a shielded stormvermin without a chain of attacks that break their guard or has a method to do so, will only make their shield bounce back up and might make a lone shielded stormvermin take longer to kill. <<

Not dangerous. Badly designed and the opposite of fun to fight. They make no sense and all they do is make you roll your eyes. Not everything has to be zomgsoscary to be in need of a rework.

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@Yzneftamz
Well decreasing their block angle while they attack would allow the players some skilled play. Dodge their attack while already starting your own ap attack. Skill would be succesfully dodging their attack and having the right timing with your own attack. If you attack to late they are already orientated to you again so you wouldn’t be able to hit them. Would be more risky than just smashing their shield of course. Would also allow for teamplay.
You see a ssv just attacking your team and you can go to help him even in a horde. Of course this would also require skill. 1. You have to constantly pay some attention on your teammates situation 2. You have to create enough room for you to be able to get an attack in on the ssv 3. You have to have the right positioning. I don’t see how this change would trivialize them. The only challenge they propose right now is that they stop your cleave in a horde. That wouldn’t change with my suggestion. Of course they would be a bit easier delt with inside a horde but they would still be way harder to kill than a regular SV, especially if your team doesn’t help you. The Handgun does trivialize them far more than my suggestion.

@BlackBart

Well that comes down to how you have fun in Vermintide. I have the most fun when the game allows me for skilled plays and i can succesfully pull them of. Teamplays are the most fun. Opening a ssv’s guard by smashing their shield is no skilled play. It’s a boring mechanic in my opinion. There is no risk for the player at all cause the ssv is constantly stunlocked. Yes they make fighting hordes more difficult but they would still do that even if you change them a little bit.

@anon26183726

As soon as several people attack a ssv then you can use charged attacks to open their shield too. So as soon as their defense is open the ssv will get hit by an ap attack. Yes it is not the fastest way but its easy and there is no way that a teamate of you will get hit. Normally when is see a teamate fighting a lone ssv i just wait and let them kill it. Getting behind the ssv is a pain cause they get constantly pushed arround. Sometimes i join them by doing ap attacks so as soon as the guard is open i will do damage. But that’s really not fun at all.

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I just made two videos to demonstrate my thougts a little bit.

In the first video i want to demonstrate how the decreased block angle during attacks would affect how you fight them


Lets immagine my suggestion is implemented.
My first try at 0:05 wouldn’t hit him. My timing is wrong i attack to late, he is already orientated to me.
Second try at 0:09 i attack to late again and maybe i didn’t even get the right angle.
Third try at 0:12 same mistake again.
Fourth try at 0:18 even worse.
Fifth try at 0:21 this time it should have worked. timing is correct and the angle too.
Sixt try at 0:24 a fail again.
Seventh thy at 0:26 should have worked again.

After that at 0:35 i just wanna show that ssv’s can make a shield push during their stunned phase without showing an animation. Im the host so this is not lag. It’s weird and shouldn’t happen.

At 0:41 i try it with two dodges. I think that also should have been a hit.

In the Second video i wanna demonstrate how the current ssv design counters teamplay.

Immagine the witch hunter and i get attacked by a horde and he also has the aggro of a ssv.
Lets just say i managed it to realize that the ssv start an attack animation and i also managed it to position myself at this angle and i also could get enough room to succesfully make a shot. Im in a 90 degree angle to the ssv and he is clearly not covered by his shield. Still he is able to block my shots. If you want teamplay in your game than you have to make the teamplay accesable in the first place. What am i supposed to do to help the witch hunter? Getting to a 180 degree to the ssv completely putting myself out of position in the middle of the enemy horde? In most cases the current design of ssv simple does not allow for teamplay and i personally really don’t like that.

I can understand that people are worried the game might get easier and easier with every change.
I wouldn’t mind for exchange ssv’s would deal more damage or attack faster.
If a game isn’t difficult it can’t require skilled plays or teamplay, so the last thing i want is to make the game easy.
But if a challenge is designed in a way that in 90% percent of the cases you solve it by boring mechanics, then it isn’t fun either.

Edit:
@Bahtoo
It is your thread so if you primarely want to discuss your suggestion i can of course make my own thread.

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I’m enjoying the discussion. I found the videos to be quite helpful to fully grasp the angle changes you’ve mentioned. I had hoped to cut out some shield vermin clips of my own, but I didn’t have any time for it last night.

As others have expressed I do not want to make it easier, but it would add a level of depth to get more intuitive counterplay.

Unfortunately at times the stormvermin will flinch back into blocking when getting whacked by several people, shits terrible.

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they are annoying to fight that’s for sure.
what can i add-say about them well some time when they are 1-2 agro on me and i see team is close by i just block and take a position so that my team can hit them from behind. and u know what happened? like most of every time… THEY turn 180 and BLOCK the hit like WTF…
sometime when i see a team just slaping at them i get behind and u know what happened? they block my hit and turn around 180…
a total can3er of one enemy. and when u play SOLO like kill all things not speed run, all u can do is exploit climb up and climb down kite. if u dont have a kite solution well idk for others but i just quit the game. horde +1, 3 SV shield NO TNX!!!

Theb storm vermin should have limited stamina which is consumed by blocking.

man, am i the only one who thinks shieldvermins are awesomely fun to fight.

fighting them with fast weapons by slapping their shields then heavystriking their exposed face is a straightforward technique.

i personally like to stunlock smash them while pivoting around to their back for the backstabs. shade with dd or snd kills them really fast, and is extremely fun to pull off. can be done with any fast weapons too.

if i’m using a slow weapon, sometimes i have to interlace ranged attacks with my melee weapon - once the shield is opened up, ranged weapon to the face. the time they are exposed is pretty long.

if all else fails, just engage with the party for a mad slashing poking and smashing. it usually is a mad rush to see who gets the final blow, rather than it being a stop to your run. i think the only time they’re a problem is during patrols when they’re mingled with many regular stormvermin.

if i’m running a BH, i prefer to wait till my teammates expose the face and i take the final shot to the head. usually 3 hits will open up the shield, so just be patient and line up the shot.

rifleman on kruber, bang dead. rv with shotgun, wail on the shield a bit and shotgun to the face. all of sienna’s melee weapons are fast enough to open up the shield, not even counting what she can do with her staffs. conflag can turn their backs to you by positioning the explosion behind them, beam staff is straightforward, flamer can totally CC an entire stormvermin patrol on it’s own. bolt staff i guess u can spam it on them, i don’t use it much.

most ranged weapons can be spammed on them and with enough muscle memory you can easily dispatch them. eg. swiftbow = 3 light shots then start heavying to the face. crossbows, just keep firing.

otherwise… not too sure what’s the fuss about. SSVs take a lot of flak but they can’t really attack. that’s their thing, to be defensive without offense. imo they’re well designed because they can easily be taken care of if you know what you’re doing.

note: there was a time when 2 shieldvermins + 2 regular stormvermins would spawn in spinemanglrs boss fight into the nest. they took them out because they acknowledged it was a pain especially with no terrain to exploit, and 1 person trying to clutch save 2 SSV in a boss fight was pretty hard if they didn’t have the right setup.

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I don’t have an issue with them either. But if someone dips to the right or left of them, they should not be able to GOD MODE block. It’s a bit nuts… Then you have chars like daggermaiden who can stun lock them into timed back stabs. Some classes excel in killing them…

yea, that’s kinda the same as every other thing though. IBs or unchained don’t really excel at killing specials, compared to huntsmans or waystalkers or BHs. similarly no one can stand and tank an entire chaos patrol for several seconds except an IB with ult. no one can kill bosses as fast as a shade with a purple pot wielding dual daggers in melee range. no weapon can eradicate a whole horde instantly like a shotgun can.

i mean my point is that SSVs are philosophically like every other thing in the game, some setups deal with it efficiently but other setups not so much, but somehow they’re being singled out and ragged on badly.

Almost sounds like every other thread about shît being OP. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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Oh no, how dare people imply something may be badly designed? No, clearly they’re just bad at the game! Just because you can potentially maybe eventually beat something, it’s completely balanced! GREAT design, actually. No tweaks required. Who even cares. If it works even remotely and doesn’t crash the game, it’s perfect. Nothing wrong with it. Absolutely nothing. Nope, everyone who has a problem with these mechanics is just lolbad and salty. You people are paragons of tranquility, meanwhile.

Man am I glad this place has a word filter

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It’s really easy to kill stormvermin with kruber and exe sword for example. One heavy attack followed by a push staggers them long enough to one shot them to the head with another heavy attack. Also handgun at full hero power insta kills them, although their shield can catch the bullet.

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I used to mind them, but not so much anymore. They seem well-designed to serve their purpose; punish tunnel-visioning of the whole team on a single enemy. They are the reverse of a mini-boss in that they don’t present much of a threat, and shouldn’t be ganged-up on, but make other enemies harder to kill by their presence. I can see how they must be very tedious when you have team mates who don’t get that and keep all trying to them. If you’re going to attack them, at least try to go around behind them.

The only time I have a problem with them is when there are more than one and trying to open one up pushes it behind another.

Maybe the best change to make to them would be to not have them knocked back as much when they block; it would make for easier flanking by allies, and prevent them from being knocked behind each other.

@mookanana

No of course you are not and i can understant why player like ssv like they are. But honestly most of the points that you like about them are reasons why i don’t like them.

Yes thats a technique but it doesn’t require skill and there are no risks when using it. You don’t need good timing or reflexes you just need to know the attacks to open their block with that certain weapon. Even if you just started playing the game and somebody told you the needed attacks for a certain weapon, you can already apply it. Why is there no risk? Because they are stunlocked during the whole process. They can’t even hit you back. Thats why i can’t enjoy that technique. Of course if you try to apply those techniques while they are sorrounded by a horde it requires skill. But most of the time people will kill the horde arround them and then the ssv’s last. Look at this Video. What do you think is easier killing the horde arround the two ssv’s or killing the ssv’s first? So the only situation where it would require skill to kill them will most likely never happen.

Of course i understand ssv’s by themself are not supposed to be a challenge or fun to fight. Their only job is to make killing a horde a bit more difficult and they do that. But they will still do that even if you decrease their block angle during their attacks.

Why is it fun to kill an enemy who can’t even attack back. Stunlocking them is incredible easy.

I agree this is actually fun. Atleast if you have to aim for the head.

This is teamplay and i like that. But in the situatuions where this is most needed (during horde) it will mostly not happen because teamates will kill horde and ssv’s last. They most likely won’t try to opend the ssv’s block during the horde. After the horde this teamplay is not needed anymore because ssv’s on their own are no thread at all. Maybe you can do that if you play with premades, but most of the players don’t play with premades.

Well not fun in my opinion. You don’t even have to aim for the head. Its easy, boring does make ssv’s kinda trivial.

Muscle memory? Wouldn’t call it like that. You don’t have to have done it a single time before and you can still do it.

Well i really don’t know which certain attacks you need on the longsword to open their block as you can see in the video. I still can easely take care of them. So i don’t really agree that you need to know what you are doing. Maybe on some weapons?

Killing them by exploiting terrain is in my eyes the defenition of boring game design. It’s like you are playing an RPG with tons of epic side quests (epic quests stand for fun to fight enemys in V2) then you suddenly get the quest to carry 10 stones from place A to B (killing 3 ssv’s by exploiting terrain). Some might say that there can’t only be epic quests in an RPG. I don’t think so. I think every enemy in V2 can be fun while still fullfilling their purpose. Decreasing the ssv’s block angle during their attack won’t take their role to make hordes harder to kill.

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well, my post wasn’t really focused on having ‘fun’ (that’s really based on what players find fun) i’m just sharing techniques that i use to kill them quickly, since many people seem to be struggling.

the person in the video is using a weapon that is horrible against shields lol. but yes, in this case you definitely want to finish off the little ratties first because fighting 2 SSVs with a 2handed sword is going to take a looooong time, especially since he didn’t use his ranged weapon at all. it’s like bringing a conflag staff to a 1v1 boss fight: you can kill it, but it’s gonna take some time.

the guy in the video took like ages to kill ssv. with my favourite ssv killing machine the shade, 4 light attack swings for each SSV can kill them. it’s fun for me because it’s comparatively super fast and makes me imagine a movie sequence with an agile elf flurrying a slow armoured target to death. if you’ve seen game of thrones, the fight between the prince and the mountain.

well kinda same reason as above. if kruber had a handgun in the video, things would play out very differently, and quicker. i don’t know about you, but killing things fast is fun for me.

oh? i find using the environment to take care of threats is really fun. bombing bosses off cliffs, letting an assassin pounce off a mountain, slapping SSVs and stormvermins off ledges.

There is the reason why we have different opinions.

I guess you haven’t seen my first post. Killing enemys fast is not fun for me if killing them does not require skill. I don’t play vermintide because i wanna be a powerfull hero who fights throug enemys with no problem.
I play it cause off the challenge the game presents me. Having the right timing for dodging, judging distance correctly, finding good attack windows, having good awarness, always having an eye on what your teammates are doing. That’s why i play this game. That for example is why im not a big fan of temp health how it is right now (Makes finding attack windows with some weapons really easy.). That’s also why i don’t like that shade can kill bosses so fast. Bosses are a nice challenge for your skills but not if they die in 5 seconds. SSV’s are the only enemy left in the game who is mostly not fun fighting for me.

Its fun when you dodge the assasin and he jumps to his death. You needed to dodge succesfully so it required skill. Same with pushing bosses of cliffs. Especially if you can’t communicate with the team its quite hard. Killing ssv’s by making them climp up and down the same ledge doesn’t require any skill at all. What can go wrong when doing it?

Mookanana we won’t agree here. We just enjoy the game differently. But the change im suggesting won’t make it any diffenrent for you. It just will make the game more fun for people like me.

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