Shade lvl 30 talents

As of today in my opinion the only viable option for shades level 30 talent is Cloak of Pain.
I would really like to use Cloak of Mist or Shadowstep, but find it too underwhelming in comparison.
There are 3 ways i see Cloak of Mist could get more attractive:

  1. Add bonus damage, less than normal ult but at least some bonus damage.
  2. Reduce the cooldown more, at least 55%.
  3. Combine it with Shadowstep.

Shadowstep i dont know how to fix, but maybe a cool idea would be able to teleport behind and face a targeted enemy.

What do you think? Are you happy with shades level 30 talents or would these ideas be viable and fix the matter? Other better ideas?

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I agree that Cloak of Mist and Shadowstep are very underwhelming and that Cloak of Pain feels like the only viable choice. Would love to see some complete reworks of these Talents if FS is willing to do so.

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You can play a Special killing build with CDR, but it’s a bit of a meme, that only works well if your team plays solo.

It’s funny how the mobility Ult is still better than Handmaiden’s Ult, even though it doesn’t get used though.

Removing the walk through enemies bit from Infiltrate and adding it as an option to pick in that row would be okay, or just getting rid of it at all and offering Shadowstep as the solution.

The Reduced CD with removed damage boost is hardly worth anything, because the CD of Infiltrate is so low anyway. A Talent that would increase movement speed while in Infiltrate would probably be welcome.

Instead of passive cooldown reduction for Cloak of Mist, how about something wild, like backstabs give cooldown reduction?
E.g. Backstabs give 15% cooldown reduction. Caps at 65% (or whatever numbers are balanced).
Balancing it would probably be a headache for sure.
This would give it synergy with Vanish, for chain backstabs.

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I quite liked V1.0 infiltrate that gave 100% crit chance to ranged weapons as well. (well at first ranged weapons didn’t break stealth either with a talent)

A synergy with the repeater could be cool (and make that weapon relevant)

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With these descriptions i would see Cloak of Mist and Shadowstep equally viable and interesting as Cloak of Pain and still keep their spirits:

Cloak of Mist
Infiltrate cooldown reduced by 50%. Damage bonus on attacking reduced by 50%.

Shadowstep
Infiltrate causes Kerillian to blink forward, passing through enemies. First melee attack during infiltrate causes another blink forward.

D: That would be utter hell, putting you in the least favorable positions every time.
The third passive already gives you the opportunity to get out of dodge after the hit. So… redundant.

Things I’d find interesting:

“From the shadows”
Duration extended to 10 seconds, ability to fire ranged weapons without breaking stealth, maybe with an ammo pool upgrade to make it really competitive?

That would be the ultimate & loreful “shade” fantasy.

“Slaughter”
Increase cleave by a LOT on the damage bonus and applies damage to all.

This would promote the use of cleave weapons of shade instead of single target weaponry.
Currently, even with dual swords, you can only affect the first targets you hit.

Finally, with the arrival of GK, I’ve been longing for a return of the 40s cooldown.
GK basically has two nukes, for the cooldown of the shade ult pre-2.0 (when we used to pick the -30% cooldown).
While shade has one nuke, for more cooldown.

Arguably, one gives invis (5 seconds, down from 10 pre-2.0) and the other has knock back. Insanvely useful when snipping a boss, as I cannot count the number of times when I ulted a boss just to have him do a 180 mid animation and smake me in the face).

I disagree, it would not be redundant because with unlike Cloak of Pain where you have total freedom of your movement and get an extra hit from stealth, with my suggestion it would give you the ability to for instance fast melee-snipe an enemy and get back to your team or maybe transport you somewhere faster and further compared to current Shadowstep. After the second blink you would of course leave stealth. Sure it could get you in trouble if you misscalculate the final destination, but thats a fun risk in my opinion.

Im afraid a talent that let me use ranged weapons from stealth would not make me pick it over todays Cloak of Pain.

Here are a few reasons why I think it’s not something that would end up well:

Aiming “through” another item, is an tricky thing to do (trust the dota experience ^^).

If you dash forward, have to take a few steps, walk behind the monster to align a “return trip”, then dash back, you are effectively more than a few steps shy of your team, uncloaked, most likely in the thick of the horde.

You would be using shade as a ranged weapon, when Kerillian’s ranged weapons are already pretty good.

Killing a boss with a such an ult would be a really really really painful experience.

And there’s probably more…

The worst thing you can do to rework talents is to nerf the skill and put whatever you nerfed into a talent. Nothing feels worse.

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First off, two things:
I completely agree, that the other two options are overshadowed by cloak of pain and could use tweaking to give her viable and fun options.
IMHO shade is too strong with her current passive and it should should be changed before tweaking any of her talents (maybe give her 2 or 3 seconds of cooldown reduction
On a critical Backstab instead)

Now to the talents:
Id say 65% (shaving off 39 seconds) should be max. Five seconds of stealth and a guaranteed crit every 21 seconds are a fair tradeoff for losing the damage bonus.

  • Taking the 10% skill reduction on trinket would reduce the skill to an effective 15 seconds. With 3 sec on backstab through vanish this would give her more of a stealthy rogue feeling.

Shadowstep could be changed to something like „Arrows in the dark“
This removes the bonus damage from melee and puts it on the first ranged fired while cloaked. Ranged shots dont break infiltrate (the others only getting a crit boost)

  • with scrounger this could give her a sustainable ranged option.

Other version would be removing the damage boost all together, but prolonging stealth to 10 seconds (effectively giving you 10 seconds of guaranteed range crits out of stealth)

They could bring back 1.6 shade talent to replace Cloak of Mists.

increase infiltration to 10 seconds, ranged attacks don’t break stealth.

Depends on how OP that makes Shades, I guess, being able to stack headshot buffs and barrage at the same time.

Id say 65% (shaving off 39 seconds) should be max. Five seconds of stealth and a guaranteed crit every 21 seconds are a fair tradeoff for losing the damage bonus.

An ult… for a crit… Seems like an extremely bad deal to me. I’d like to know if there is a single person running that talent seriously.
OR

Step 1/Remove to kill on crit passive (which is gimmicky and enticise crit fishing, which is bad), change it for something else.
Step 2/ Make the talent that removes the backstab bonus give you 100% melee crit chance for 5 seconds and your attacks do not break stealth.
Step3/ enjoy a fun and different way to play shade.

Shadowstep could be changed to something like „Arrows in the dark“
This removes the bonus damage from melee and puts it on the first ranged fired while cloaked. Ranged shots dont break infiltrate (the others only getting a crit boost)

As I said above: I agree with options that could push kerillian in a situational ranged carry option ( and nostalgia is also kicking in)

Depends on how OP that makes Shades, I guess, being able to stack headshot buffs and barrage at the same time.

I’d use to periodically run that build back in the day. 5 seconds really do not let you time to send much fire down the line though, not with shade’s “low” ammo count.

If you put it like that, it is bad.
But it can become very powerfull if you think about it:
On demand crit, with up to 5 second stealth on a 15 second cooldown.
15 seconds is nothing considering her getting 0.5 seconds on her cooldown on hit.

The stealth part gives her far more versatility in using objects, rezzing mates etc.
On demand crit can be very powerfull when you build around it (sideglance to BH). She already has good talents synergysing well with crit.

This could be implemented as well into it.

Basically giving you 3 options:
Guaranteed crits while stealthed for 5 seconds on 21 sec CD
Guaranteed ranged crits while stealthed for 10 seconds on 60 sec CD
Or massive damage boost with additional 5 seconds of stealth and crit on 60 sec CD

All 3 have their use and be the cornerstone of different aproaches of gameplay, therefore benefitting build and weapon diversity

In light of GK, Shade needs a complete rework.

GK’s crit insta-kill talent completely overshadows shade’s backstab crit insta-kill passive, since backstabs are so difficult to come by without stealth, and stealth is janky has hell.

Gk’s double ult overshadow’s any of Shade’s ults on bosses, as it does full damage regardless of weapon choice, stunlocks bosses, and has a shorter cooldown.

While shade can bring a ranged weapon to snipe specials with limited ammo, GK can bring two specialized melee weapons for superior elite and horde killing.

The nerfs to DD and S&D hurt Shade’s playstyle the most, and yet Shade got nothing to compensate. I’d like to see a rework of the backstab crit kill passive into something entirely different, and a change of the weak level 30 talents. As it stands, I really see no reason to bring a Shade over a GK beyond personal preference and skill.

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Well shadowstep and cloak of mist merge might at least be interesting if you want purely to go for that crit backstab play. Maybe slightly too safe but at least the idea sounds fun.

Generally tough i agree the 2 talents need at least some love to make them bit more interesting. I find the cloak of mist to be extremely fun in some cases but it really is a absolute meme for anything serious.

GK is just overloaded. He should get a nerf along those lines:

+30% free power is just nuts. It’s free. If it required killing elites, it would still be strong, but reduce uptime. 30% is still a shitload for killing 3 pinkies.

+30% stamina regen is very strong, but also very needed for a full melee kit.

-180hp pool is super safe.

Ult:
-Cooldown should at least be aligned on shades
-Ult should stagger stuff in front of you more reliably (death by a thousand cuts while you cast it)
-Double ult talent makes shade’s cloak of pain look bad - double the damage, double the CC. One conc pot = one boss down within 10 seconds (to damage or gravity)

His only apparent weakness is that he can’t deal with specials and he CANT help teammates in situations where a ranged weapon could save them from a disabler.

Pretty sure we already had a talent like this, and it was stupid. Just meant shade was ridiculously easy to cheese stuff with.

For shadowstep you could reactivate the special to teleport back to where you started

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