You are so right, why should any class other than veteran EVER pull out a ranged weapon to shoot anything if they just have less ammo and less ranged damage than veteran? They should all just pick a random ranged weapon and never pull it out and just let the veteran shoot all the specials and shooters while the rest of the team watches.
Please kill the shooters.
Your 5 shots aren’t enough <3
The entire tangent is on gun psyker, I wanna throw out one that is funny.
Bolter: Has a fixed ammo pool of 80+15 in the magazine.
Shotgun and Revolver: Get at most around 50-60 +5 and +10 in the magazines, respectively…
And deal significantly less damage with less AoE stagger ability.
Both of these guns reload shots individually rather than slapping a full box-mag’ in.
The ONLY major upsides to these versus the Bolter is their draw times are faster and they don’t sway any when aiming down their sights.
The shotgun lacks any penetration, the revolver has penetration and not much else…
Meanwhile, Bolter has near double the ammo pool, a massive 15-round magazine, can fire semi-auto when ADS and full-auto when hip-firing… Allowing it to snipe distant targets and rip through heavy units and crowds alike with ease.
The shotgun’s spread shot is a special shot which needs to be loaded manually, of which it can only load one at a time… So whilst useful for a crowd, it won’t usually give enough consecutive shots to tear down the majority of a horde… And the shotty is nigh-worthless against heavier armored targets. Without any penetration, its primary non-special fire mode isn’t especially effective against a horde as the only way to punch through is via additional damage from pellets letting a few pass.
It certainly doesn’t help that with only around 50+10 ammo and a surprisingly low pickup value, you can easily find yourself low on ammo and eating up ammo boxes by the fistful.
IMO, the shotgun should be able to recover at least half of its total ammo from a singular ammo box given how small its ammo carry capacity is. Same with the revolver.
Frankly, they’re just totally outmatched by the Bolter on every front but swap speeds and mobility, because whilst the punchthrough of the revolver is nice in theory it has zero AoE, no suppression whatsoever and it can even deal low enough damage per shot such that it can fail to oneshot even your average grunt with a gun.
Against elites and heavy armor the revolver fares a bit better than the shotgun, at least… But with only six rounds in the magazine and like 50 to carry, it can’t rip through said fat units with nearly the same level of ease as a Bolter, nor can it keep up said damage output for nearly as long.
The major issues in balance here aren’t the guns themselves, but their ammo economies.
A weapon can be lesser compared to another as long as the ammo capacity, magazine size, ammo spending and ammo recovery are fairly compensated.
…As-is however, the Shotgun and Revolver have atrocious ammo efficiency and don’t have nearly the ammo capacity nor ammo pickup value to make up for such.
The shotgun’s lacking potency against both hordes and armor should be compensated.
If not, perhaps swap its special ammo with its primary fire mode to make it better versus hordes without having to individually load it for such?
Even then, I feel the ammo reserves should be increased or its ammo pickup value increased by between 40-80%… And without said change, even up to +130%.
Likewise, the Revolver ought to be able to get far more out of ammo boxes given both its low magazine and carry capacity, alongside is slow reload and lacking ability to handle hordes.
The infinite punchthrough isn’t nearly as effective against a horde as the AoE blast/stagger of the Bolter, even if the bolter only punches through one or two targets innately… That punchthrough combined with the blast makes it infinitely more effective in comparison.
And again, whilst the Bolter has some sway, it’s got 80+15 rounds to make use of; and with the blast of its shots and its suppression, even a miss on a distant sniper can stagger and panic them, making a follow-up shot ezpz…
And that’s assuming said first shot doesn’t pulp them.
Bolter, speaking to the Revolver and Shotgun: “Anything you can do, I can do better; I can do anything better than you!”
I guess you would´ve saved your time just asking, what i think about the bolter. x)
Bolter needs a nerf, said that more than enough since day 1. Not so hard like flamer needs one, but it needs one and on top less ammo.
Shotgun could need a little bit of love yes, even if i don´t think it´s that bad especially compared to Ogryns one-tap shotgun.
But Revolver is overall fine. As i´ve said, maybe give it more weakspot-damage. It´ll increase they skill-ceiling a lot. On top they could come with a blessing for a speedloader, so reloading will not be an issue on Zealot / Psyker, meanwhile Vet gets more possibilities to either use the reload-perks in the tree or to get a 2nd damage-blessing on it.
The last aspect about the blessing is pretty important to me, since i see Vet itself as a major-issue if we talk about balancing. It´ll always buff range-weapons hard, while they will be worse on other classes. This could be addressed by different blessings or even more class-orientated traits.
revolver needs a lot more than just a damage buff
and why the hell does it even have a melee crit bonus? ridiculous
You realise that’s somewhat of a typo and the shots themselves also get that crit bonus yeah?
imagine thinking it’s ok for a gun to use its entire cylinder/magazine to kill something, even if it is an ogryn. Even autoguns will spend less of its ammo to take one out.
Literally the only thing it has going for it is the cleave, which is 6 toons. It really, really, needs better armor and weakspot multipliers. It can damage carapace, sure, but so can the helbore, which can kill a crusher in four hits, without the ult activated, with room for another 8 shots before needing to reload. Then you can compare it to a bolter, that can kill two crushers with the same mag, no ult, or open up a bulwark. It’s outclassed by so many other of the guns available to the vet.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but don’t get on me for not knowing that “melee” is a “typo”.
I was talking with a friend about it in a game, and we both feel it would help a lot if it was given slightly more ammo than the bolter, like 100 total, being stubber ammo would both be cheaper and smaler than bolts. Weakspot damage would help too.
I wasn’t. I was literally just trying to clear up potential misinformation.
Referring to Point Blank or?
We are talking about the crit bonus stat on the revolver. If you hover over it it says “melee crit chance” which is incorrect, though I assume it does also apply to the special attack.
And yes the way point blank works is if you kill an enemy with a melee attack then switch to revolver its shots have bonus crit chance for the listed duration. It’s a quick swap blessing.
No it doesn’t. It plays like a bolter. Plasma needs a buff.
Shotgun and revolver need more ammo, but they already have their niche value (personally i ditched bolter for shotgun precisely because of draw speed) and that value just needs to be stressed. Maybe the revolver needs more headshot damage if anything, so you can be mr. Fastest Hands in the West if thats how you like to play.
Fundamentally the problem with the design dynamic of this game is we are all running around with the RPG equivalent of level 1 gear and the bolter, PS and Flamer are level 30 gear. Because fatshark tried to balance classic 40k weapons that are meant to be flat out more powerful than their mundane counterparts we are having very weird conversations.
Every weapon should be usable and viable. But weaker weapons should be more niche. Less flexible. Using them effectively when competing with high grade weapons should be harder and more skill based. Which would be its own kind of fun.
But if you like lasguns why arent you using a hotshot lasgun or hellgun? Oh wait, because you cannot. Melta? Nope. Alternative bolter patterns? Nope. Plasma gun is unfortunately too weak on lights attacks and too heat hungry so downtime is constant. Etc. Etc.
I agree that it needs a damage buff. Laspistol feels better damage wise than revolver does, especially with the low clip size and lengthy reload factored in. I’m not sure how many people have actually used this thing in damnation, but in my experience the powerful stagger combined with the shitty damage makes it really hard to put down specials effectively, because throwing enemies onto their ass makes headshots much more difficult.
It’s not that revolver CANT kill an elite/special, its that it takes enough of your clip to do so that you usually can’t kill another special afterwards without reloading first…
The cleave is not the only thing.
The ONE thing that makes the Revolver special is its straight and 100% responsive aim.
There is no sway. There is no spread. It shoots where you aim. Every other weapon has some form of slow fade follow when you ADS around, that makes the weapon follow the mouse movement with some kind of time delay and makes it not hit exactly in the middle of the crossair.
Only the Revolver has that direct aim movement speed.
I´m not saying bolter should be nerved into the ground. It´s ok to have some sort of burst weapon, but it´s not just the damage… it´s precise with its secondary and also sits on more ammunition than revolver and shotgun.
Shotgun and revolver should stay on their ammo-count, it´s fine. You barely run out of ammo unless you spam it to waveclear all day long, which should be more a thing for your melee-weapon if you pick one of those range weapons.
Meanwhile bolters ammo-reserves should be reduced. Since the weapon is how it is… it should fit the “emergency-niche”. That´s something a powerful weapon could be used for, but not for a permanent clear just because you can and ammo is no issue at all.
Maybe add some real sway on the secondary aswell.
Poeple really need to stop to bring the lore into it. It´s a game and it needs balance. Being like “Hey, it´s a 40k weapon… it should do the triple damage and have a 10m wide-range waveclear compared to the sword we already had in fantasy warhammer!”.
No matter if something is viable… 95+% of all players will pick those broken choices to prevent a loss. The game needs balance, no matter the weapons name. And overall the balance isn´t that worse besides the obvious broken weapons and blessings since the patch.
If they really want to stick to the lore then yes… powerful weapons needs to be put into a niche or need some huge drawbacks. Everything else just doesn´t make sense gameplay-wise.
EDIT: Don´t get me wrong… lore is somewhat important. But not that important to break the balance and gameplay, because you want to stick to it.
Might be something different in a singleplayer-game, but this isn´t one.
The Bolter already has it’s big drawbacks.
- ADS: precise hits while shooting one shot. As soon as you start double tapping of even fast single firing, you miss almost every shot after the first, because the aim hops to the upper left hard.
- Extra long pull out animation after every switch or interaction with doors and stuff.
- Extra long reload animation.
- 15 shot mag where you sometimes unwillingly fire a 2 to 3 burst after leaving ADS( Some Bug since 2 patches ago)
The Bolter has its place for when you play Zealot with a melee that is not so good at dealing with carapace. Or if you focus on elite/boss kill on Vet.
AND YES this is a WARHAMMER game. This is not COD, this is not Left 4 dead or any other franchise.
Warhammer 40K and Fantasy have a STRICT LORE. And Games Workshop gives out the license for it.
GW also always has the obligation to take the license back, if your company f***s around against the lore to much.
You think people care about ‘‘Balance’’ over Warhammer Lore in a non competitive/ non PVP Warhammer PC game? 60% of the players of this game are 40K fans. The Fanbase of Warhammer is known for enduring almost every thing game developers trow at us. Because the good and lore accurate Warhammer games we get are only a few compared to all the trash we normally get.
You want that the Bolter performs like a normal auto gun? Fine for you. But a Bolter better be a Bolter when i play a 40K game, that has Bolters in it. It is not broken. Broken is that so many weapons UNDERPERFORME. Broken is that the Ogryn has to hit a poxwalker more than ONE time against his head to kill it. Broken is, that the Psyker Staffs are less effective on the dmg part, the higher you go in the difficulty. A head shot on a Poxwalker is a kill shot on every difficulty. But the Psyker almost has to blow himself up to burn or shock some Poxwalkers down on Damnation.
And no this is not a single player game. But it is in no way competitive at all, since the competitive part is viewed as TOXIC by so many, that it was left out of the game. So if you feel that the Boltgun someone brings with him into a mission is broken compared to your lets say Autopistol or Lasgun. Then it is more you thinking about ‘‘balance’’ against Teammates that is broken.
What? Do you play damnation? I hoover up ammo with shotgun all the time. Not to the detriment of my team but…i run out a lot. Ironically not for horde clear because the duckbill is quite efficient and effective at that. Mostly dealing with shooters or gunners or specials. I have a pretty good revolver and recently had the displeasure of using it. It really needs a bigger ammo pool and possibly better headshot damage. But balance wise it felt right.
Wrong. Just wrong. This is a PVE game. FUN is the ONLY thing that matters and it isn’t fun when lore weapons of great power preform in lame ways. The most important rule, the rule of cool, would be better for darktide than spreadsheet balancing all the weapons within some margin of error.
The resolution to the weird balance issues we have is to add even more powerful weapons to choose from. There’s tons!!!
There are more than enough poeple playing this one for being a tide game, others play it just for being a coop game, and even some of those playing it for being 40k adressed, know that balancing is important to keep the game fresh.
You clearly judge blindly about it, because you´re so deep into lore that it´s just not healthy for the game. In this one for example you claim that the revolver is pretty fine, meanwhile you still say bolter / PS are fine, when they clearly outperform a revolver at any time. Doesn´t make sense.
I´ve played other 40k games aswell and guess what? The devs tried to keep them balanced.
If you want to feel the power of 40k and just “broken”, hell i can´t repeat it often enough, feel free to stay on uprising or malice difficulty. Even Brainburst will still kill a lot of stuff there.
But heresy and damnation?! This is still a game, a tide-game… the 3rd of them and in both V1 and V2, the difficulty-ramp was there and the most stuff got fixed because it made outstated the higher difficulties.
There is absolutely no reason that stuff should overperform, it´s nothing but poison for coop-games. Poeple will quit because they just can´t enjoy the game if there is someone next to them clearing the whole room while holding a button.
Others will get kicked because they play such a dumb sword instead of the 40k PS + Bolter experience that should be so strong if we would strictly follow the law. And it´s not just “might happen”, no… it´ll happen and already happened in V2 or games like Destiny. This will have a huge negative impact on the game, the community and also the gameplay-variety.
Balancing is important and if a weapon is too powerful, then it needs some clear restrictions or shouldn´t be part of the game. And yes, in case of bolter those restrictions and drawbacks are as laughable as they´re on the flamer.
You might have you fun running them and feeling super good killing stuff with it. But the whole videogame-history pretty much shows how important balancing is for several reasons and a bunch of players just can´t enjoy broken games. They don´t want to go yolo through the game nor want to watch others abusing broken stuff, because it´s cheap and can come close too cheating if it´s that hard exeggerated.
Might be fun for 1-2 runs like cheating back in the days in GTA games or using some glitches in Pokemon to catch 99 masterballs. But it´s just no fun in the long run.
Yes i do and it nearly seems like i´m actually the only one here taking the melee weapon into the hand and slaying through hordes instead of sitting back and pewpew all day long. I pretty much never run out of ammo unless i spam it into the horde and never pick up boxes.
Now imagine YOUR fun isn´t MY fun nor the OTHERS fun.
Making half the weapons worthless, just because some power- or chainweapons have to be super duper strong is nothing but a stupid move if you design a game. No matter if you keep the stuff viable, it´ll break the game completely and a lot of players will leave.
And again… just stick to malice if you want to feel powerful and have your fun with it. I really don´t get what´s wrong with that choice. This is a coop-game with multiple difficulties.