Returning veteran player's thoughts on BBB

First of all, I want to say that the idea to change the stalemate in current game’s state is more than welcome. It was the reason me, personally, and many players I know returned to try things out, and I even know a person who bought the game when upcoming development shenanigans got his attention.

(Also, for the sake of this feedback, please assume that I talk mainly about Cataclysm difficulty, but it also somewhat applies to Legend due to their similarity in type of challenge they provide. I do not take lower difficulty into account.)

That said… where do I even start with the changes themselves?

Stalemate of game’s hard meta was caused specifically by lack of variety of viable playstyles compared to what challenges the game presented to you, namely the worst offenders:

  1. Bosses (monsterls, lords) are hard walls to most careers and most weapons. Your team composition needs to have one, or, better yet, several careers that specialize in deleting bosses in seconds, otherwise you are gonna be stuck chipping at it for wave after wave of enemies even if your entire team is alive. Even more so at true solo, of course, but I know it’s not considered to be a relative point of balance anyway.

  2. Lack of weapon versatility. Anything becomes a hard wall to you if you decide to play a suboptimal weapon. I already mentioned bosses, but some weapons just can’t deal with certain enemy wave compositions at all, other struggle with way too many possible compositions, etc. Heavy weapons have very feew good exceptions, as their defense capabilities, unless counteracted by career skills, make them too specialized to the point of being unusable when the game flow even so slightly tilts in horde’s favor.

  3. Speaking of careers, there’s also the fact that you significantly handicap yourself by taking certain careers over others. For example, WHC and Zealot are both pretty powerful in their own ways, but why take either instead of BH, who does as much damage as WHC, is not that far in tankiness from Zealot, and also can damage bosses, which is what games heavily bullies you into? Create arrows and potions, or be a solo horde killer or immortal CW/boss locker on FoW with Bardin? You get the idea.

To summarize, the game is overly relied on versatile weapons/careers/attributes/perks, which in on itself is not a bad thing per se, but - there are too few options to choose from, hence the stalemate with only a handful of team compositions that can reliably beat any level with anything AI director throws at them.

So, what is my problem with BBB, you might ask?

Remember how I established the main problems with the game’s variety of choise? Well, the BBB fixes literally ZERO of them. I don’t even think that any of changes were aimed at fixing problems with variety of choise at all, rather just buffing what authors (mostly fan modders, supposedly) find fun, and nerfing what they do not favor.

Fix the “wall” bosses? Nah, better nerf Shade’s nuke weapons by removing what was making them good in the first place, and tinkering with breakpoints that now make it pretty much impossible to oneshot anything, meanwhile they work perfectly fine on stable version. It wasn’t a matter of a game challenge either, because BH, which, on live version, was already far more broken and easier to use, got buffed through the roof.
Some meme weapons got stat tweaks, then some weapons that were actually good on live because their stats and movesets were mutually complimentary, got stripped of what made them good in the first place. Meanwhile meme weapons are still massive memes, but they crit a bit more often, so they got like +20% bonus to 0 damage they were doing to actually threatening targets. I think you get the idea.

It is very hard to pin-point what exactly is wrong with all these changes. Current BBB changes are so chaotic and lack any reasoning whatsoever, I simply can’t produce any constructive advice other than “scrap everything and start at square one”. I understand that these changes can be fun for people who want to play with silly mods. But this is not a mod. This is a beta for upcoming patch Fatshark’s entire dying playerbase will be forced to play. I see no point in killing current meta, if it doesn’t result in fresh and diverse experience, or, worse yet, in case of current changes, forces players to obide to an even more distinct meta.

I don’t keep my hopes too high, but I still strongly recommend FS dev team takes these changes with all seriousness. Time spent and effort put count for little when the result is so lackluster and unachieving. Please consider prioritizing fixing actual problems with your further updates, and not walking around in circles stepping on your own heels.

Peace.

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I don’t understand this point. How are there less choices right now? Literally alot more weapons are great now on cataclysm, one of the issues you said you had at the beginning on your thread.

I don’t understand how shade’s nuke got nerfed, she can still nuke the same, she has a bit less crit? What other elf nuke nerf did i miss?

I do agree not every change is a good one. But this is what a big balance beta is all about, you know, to gather feedback. Making big rant posts saying things like ‘oh and this is nerfed and this it’s all bad and oh it’s too strong’ it’s hard for a developer to make changes if they don’t get specifics, unless like you said, you really just don’t like ANY changes in this beta.

I don’t understand this aswell. If, for example, dual dagger crit gets nerfed and you feel dual dagger feel bad after that, the change is pretty easy to pin point. I agree that it could be tricky if there is alot of changes to a certain weapon or talent (sienna’s mace for example).

They are trying i think, that’s why they released this beta in the summer, so everyone has a chance to test and give their feedback and so it won’t be rushed.

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Bounty hunter got buffs for least played build, melee build with swaps. Playing this build actually lovers your bosskilling capabilities because you don’t have your open wounds, but it increases your horde and elite killing capabilities. I should also say, that standart full ranged BH with crossbow now can be played with “weapon swap buff” passive with hunter and ammo sustain from “reload…”, but as far as I understand it’s not an otion for you because you’re sayng about big defence which is 30% DR. Build you’re talking about aint changed at all. You still have your original Xbow, original 30% DR, “Prize Bounty” and Scrounger. New ult much worse than double bullet for this buld cause you can’t scale it for THAT big DPS even in 35-40 min game.

We allready have Shade, BH, BW, GK who can really delete bosses. Also we have Slayer, Huntsman, Zealot and WHC who can deal significant boss damage. And we also have our FK who can stunlock every boss or lord with purple potion to death. Pyro can do the same thing but with damage for now also. With nice team now it’s not a problem to deal with bosses really fast.

But I agree with lords part, certain lords really should be nerfed a bit and one should be buffed, because Skarrik is waaaaaay to weak for now.

About careers - we’re still waiting a rework for Huntsman and Pyro.

I can clear hordes with 1h Axe as BH in new build. We got much of really huge buffs and even 1h mace now performing really well on cata on both hunter and RV. You can stunlock hordes and unarmored elites. For others you have your xbow or rifle which is really welcoming weapon now. (Big thanks for that 0.5 sec of reaload).

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You have my attention

I seriously disagree with your analysis. Bosses are hard? WHAT? If you learned to actually kite/dodge a boss a bid and still stay alive you would realize that the boss is NEVER the problem. The issue is combined threats. Not the so called “wall” boss. A boss is a slowdown at best. 3 out of 5 bosses are pretty danceable so you dont take any damage from them. And even if they do a bid of damage thats what thp is for. The thing that usually fills up your hp bar quite fast.
Oh and dont forget all the other things that delete bosses quite fast…
GK, Bh ult (one talent point needed), hagbane, fireball, beamstaff, …
Shade has a harder time nuking bosses now? Because of 10% missing crit chacne on dual daggers? You know that her ult is an autocrit right? And you also realize that crit chance is not the same as crit power. Aka crit chance doenst boost crit dmg.
Bounty hunter is nearly as tanky as zealot? Have you ever played them? Bounty has only 2/3 of zealots base hp pool. He has a MUCH harder time generating thp. Oh and he misses the “dont die now” passive… In what world is bh as tanky as zealot?
Changes dont increase diversity? Like how dude? You got like 5 minor nerfs in this patch. Ignoring the few QoL things (which never hurts) everything else is pretty much a straight up buff. And if that doesnt increase build diversity I dont know what would.

What is it that you want from a balance patch? I dont get it.

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I don’t think that current state of BBB is the last one. For now Pyromancer is the least performing career compared to other wizards and BH (Who can be considered as most close career by in-game role and playstyle) and I really think that we will get her tallent tree rework in near future, like month or 2.

Hmm i disagree, but lets agree to disagree for the sake of this thread, sorry i derailed a bit






Could you at least pretend that you’ve read the entire thing before attacking my points by arguing random parts of my phrasing taking out of context? I tried to provide a constructive opinion and possibly start a productive dialogue and exchange of experiences, not to waste my time on this holy war for demagoguery championship belt on some dying forum amid the Internet.

For people who are actually interested in this conversation, please do attack my main points of the topic, which, I remind you, are:

  1. There’s too much of a gap between career+weapon setups that delete bosses in seconds and setups that deal pretty much no damage to them. Ask yourself, do you really want to see the same three nuke careers every time you attempt ftw Cata Skittergate run?
  2. Nerfs and buffs are purely chaotic. Only some of them are based on what weapons are underpicked or underperforming, and among them, only a handful of buffs actually get those weapons closer to performing on par with good setups. Most, if not all nerfs completely miss the point that the nerfed weapons were picked because there were no alternatives: now that there are better options, there’s no point in taking these nerfed weapons in most cases.
  3. The update lacks substance. It changes a lot and achieves jack all. It should’ve been a complex analysis that leads to a series of simple solutions in balance changes. What underperforms and why it underperforms? What performs well, and is it an overpowered option, or a baseline for what the weapon should be?
    “hurr durr greatsword swings faster for the same <10 damage” is NOT a result of a complex analysis.
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WHAT?

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Why do we need a rework for pyro?

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You don’t give any examples. I am starting to gather that you really don’t have any.

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I hate this but not for the reason you seem to. Any career can kill a boss with any weapon. Yes, it’s not ideal but if 4x players are attacking a boss it doesn’t really matter what you bring. The PROBLEM is because there is usually a BH or shade or GK in pugs these days, most players don’t even understand how to fight bosses. The typical ‘boss strat’ is pass purple juice to BH. This is just a crutch not a requirement.

Answered in your own words. I’m not re-reading the topic for the third time to answer you in another set of quotes, just like I did for a previous bunch of wannabe-demagogues.

Could you at least pretend that you’ve read the entire thing before attacking my points by arguing random parts of my phrasing taking out of context? I tried to provide a constructive opinion and possibly start a productive dialogue and exchange of experiences, not to waste my time on this holy war for demagoguery championship belt on some dying forum amid the Internet.

I tried to read your whole thing. But it was just so far of reality that you might missunderstand me.
I took the most obvious things that were plain WRONG from you to point it out. Your take on “balance and meta” is just way to far away from any reality that its seriously surprising that you play cata (Ill assume you also win some).

And since you (as you said yourself) didnt manage to show examples whats wrong with the balance patch its hard to argue against your idea. Cause your idea literally boils down to “BBB is wrong”.

To continue on the boss part as its one of the few parts thats a bid clear…
Just because a weapon/career/build cant kill a boss in 10 seconds doesnt mean its useless. A boss is at best a thing that spawns TWICE per map (if we discount lords). Do you really think that a random occurence that happens on average once per map is such a big roadblock that it nullifies weapons? Like how? Some weapons are simply not meant to be used against bosses. And thats fine. Mino is the only hard to solo boss (not that bosses need to be/ are supposed to be soloed under normal circumstances). All otehr bosses are totally killable solo by any weapon.

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So Bounty Hunter is an example of bad weapon balance in the beta. Ok mate. Clearly something is going wrong.

Thanks for actually caring for what I have to say, it seems a bit too rare on this forum these days.

And that was my point exactly. The problem, as I said, is not that “not every career deletes bosses”: as I said, there is a huge gap, but as with any gap, you can move both the lowest and the highest treshold.
Right now, you just get a boring fight that can get way past 5 minute mark depending on what AI director spawns at you. It feels like just an artificial time stretch, and the way to counter it is - that’s right, taking nuke characters. I also mentioned Skittergate, that pretty much demands you get nukers, because of how little damage Rasknitt takes from weapon attacks.

Bossfights lasting from one to five minutes depending on their intended difficulty is a fine design choice. Some careers doing better than the others against bosses is a fine design choice.

Some careers deleting bosses in seconds, while others doing pretty much no damage and taking dozens of minutes to bore the boss to death, however, is NOT a fine design choice. I think both ends should be vastly closer to the middle, with deviation purely to signify specialisation, not to be a musthave pick for a consistent run.

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Yes I will only point out the most ovious flaw in your argument …
A bossfight lasting 5 minutes? What did you do? Drink tea with it?
Outside of twitch mode or other high intensity modes like twins+suicide bombers Ive never seen a boss kill timer (boss not lord to be clear) that went past 2 minutes …

You don’t like me commenting on your points because you say i am commenting beside the point, but atleast i was trying to make some sense of your original rant. you should of started with this in your first post :

But instead you quoted ‘i don’t understand’ from my response which comes across rather badly, and you did things which you don’t like others doing.

Also i don’t agree with your post and your views of the game.

I don’t agree with all of your points, but on this one I agree completely. The gap between classes when it comes to monster or boss damage is way too big. If ypu have the “right” party composition the things die in seconds, but with the “wrong” one you indeed can get overrun by random spawning stuff because your team can’t mathemathically pass the DPS check anymore…

This situation is impossible to balance without decreasing the damage gap between careers. It’s perfectly fine that some are better than others at this specifuc task, but the difference needs to be smaller.

Easiest way I could think of that affects the rest of the balance in the game the least: Introduce a damage cap so that purple drinkers can’t nuke the monsters & bosses in seconds anymore, and lower their hitpoints as well so that all careers can at least kill them more efficiently. This makes random monsters easier, I know, but maybe that can be compensated by spawning them more often per map. Then you have more diversity in your fights as well, and nukers still have a good reason to be picked without being required.

That wasn’t our process at all. We provide rationales/reasoning in the patch notes and it’s followed up with Designer comments on the changes, changes which Fatshark clearly approved for this beta.

Otherwise all I can say is @Mattie 's response to you at the top of the thread hit the nail on the head.

There are certainly things that need polishing and more work. There were certainly ideas we had that weren’t the correct ones or didn’t fix the problems of that weapon (Mace and Shield, for example) and there were certainly thing that were over buffed (Volley Xbow, 2h axe).

However, that’s not to say that our process was somehow just trying to make the game the way “we’d like it to be”. Even among the mod authors we had plenty of disagreements on how things should be regarding balance and still do, we mostly just agreed on what the problems were and then the disagreements manifested over solutions. What we settled on was a culmination of testing and feedback. This beta will serve to further polish the groundwork we’d laid out.

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