Perfeita colocação. Não tenho nada a adicionar nesse aspecto
That is the most insubstantial statement I have ever heard. Clearly there are subjective elements but there are also more objective measures to weigh. If there wasn’t then BW wouldn’t be close to the top of every tier list around.
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There is a lot of stuff to look at. Like Zealot having the same number of buffs for anyone but himself as slayer or pyromancer (none). Or how unlike Footknight vs Mercenary every Victor has a lot less killing power than WHC in melee on high difficulties. And especially burst damage for monsters/lords BH pot excluded. So out of the gate not being a range focused career is already stacking poorly vs WHC, since you’re never going to come close to his killing potential over all targets in melee. Hence the power and attack speed buffs out the ears.
The healing perk I don’t really like since the version from pre WoM was much more fair and still involved some risk (it was +2 THP every hit during ult only). The current version is definitely a bad play style game design wise but not really offending in the scope of the game. Which is why it doesn’t really ‘balance’ Zealot to troll him by making his buffs inaccessible. Its not like there’s a career that moves Bardin’s ammo packs or takes away WHC’s crits but its the same concept.
Obviously WHC’s powers scale extremely well with difficulty but I don’t really agree with him being the be all end all of Saltz’ melee capabilities.
He lacks:
- Any raw power boost whatsoever (no bonus cleave or stagger whatsoever, hence CC is relatively poor outside of Ult stagger)
- Any kind of defence against major threats. Yeah he’s got the block passive and pretty mobile weapons. His health is just middle of the line and he has 0 DR or bonus healing in his kit
- Much AS outside of SS. One option but there are other competitive options in that row.
Zealot might not have the same potential damage output at high skill/difficulty levels, but he simultaneously has very high damage, very high control due to cleave and stagger increases from all his power, a heap of AS which is both offensive and defensive as well as allowing one to comfortably run eg Opportunist flail to be an incredibly potent frontliner. On top of all that he is incredibly safe, and easy to play, due to being able to combine either massive amounts of bonus healing with barkskin, or 30% always on DR with Boon.
So I really don’t think Zealot melee < WHC melee is a statement that can be made as if it’s axiomatic.
It’s really not, since Zealot just has to face tank an overhead next time iron will is up to get all his bonuses back. It actually is an effective nerf in that way since it forces him to regularly flirt with actual danger to keep his bonuses, something Zealot otherwise never has to do under a comfortable 179 block of THP.
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Lots of games have had this problem, which is kind of counterintuitive until you’ve seen an example of it. People usually expect tankiness to = less damage or mediocre damage, but in certain cases it means more damage in the form of offensive uptime.
Making Zealot tanky actually makes it more offensively capable, leading to situations where you can be wildly out of position and it doesn’t matter to the point where it’s actually beneficial due to being able to take hits for Career Skill Regen, whithout teammates staggering the enemies.
To further this point, you can just look at a build that’s viable on him on Cata+, where you don’t take any defensive stats that effect Stamina on your Items and still deal a ridiculous amount of damage, while not increasing risk.
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Right but ultimately we’re not looking at the vaccum of WHC minus all of his factual buffs to melee damage output from talents passives and unlisted passives, its WHC with those buffs vs Zealot.
WHC has assassin, which spreads to all enemies hit and boosts criticals as well as headshots. And a built in nerfed deathknell (25% instead of 50%). Along with 5% extra crit chance. This isn’t even mentioning killing shot. Strong crowd killing power with less control, but then there’s also eternal guard to free up your pushes (and a handy talent for more stamina regen).
But the focus of WHC’s melee power is how effortlessly all of those enable him to quickly mass kill elites in even the highest difficulties because just improving Victor’s massive finesse modifiers on headshot with most weapons as much as he does would be enough. But he can also apply an improved smiter bonus if he or his teammates press T. There’s so much in this kit you’re discounting its entirely a bad faith argument.
And really the entire argument that Zealot is somehow balanced getting griefed by 2 potential teammates out of 15 is nonsense. So when the other 13 classes are present or regen quest doesn’t appear Zealot is broken? Again, compare the melee power of WHC and Zealot and be honest and actually include all the variables. And a free 20% damage boost can be applied in all scenarios and even given to your teammates, but its apparently too much for Zealot to have 30% power. Its actually not an issue at all because witch hunt is a teamwork or something. Its strictly a negative because green health is given and covered over your white health. Not a positive for the game because you personally don’t like how strong Zealot is in legend while still being laughably easy to play.
Where is the campaign against dual hammers RV with the pistol which is in a different league entirely of no risk entirely too much damage and insulting to the long term playerbase. Far worse turds in the bucket. Also I’ve seen you use Legend as a gatekeeping argument against adjusting the javelin reload before, so how its grounds for a Zealot nerf here is anyone’s guess. Also something about crossbow dwarf having a similar loadout.
Who is any of this aimed at? Maybe me and/or @Kitten but I didn’t get a notification saying somebody replied to a post and there’s so much wildly off what either of us has actually said that I feel like I’ve slipped into an alternate dimension reading it.
There are small parts that are coherent enough to respond to but first I’d like to be clear who or what you’re trying to address with those paragraphs, maybe quote what you’re responding to do it’s clear?
Like this is so confusing. Who did this? What is the relevance of this at all? What does that first sentence even mean? Crossbow Dwarf? What?!
Ahhhh, something vaguely coherent to actually respond to. Quite simple, people have railed against MW Pistol a heap. I guarantee if someone posted a thread saying MW Pistol should have literally any kind of “QoL” improvement people would jump down their throat quicker and harder than this Zealot thread. TL;DR it’s reactionary to the threads actually popping up, nobody is posting new threads saying Zealot should be nerfed. Duh. Also don’t use whataboutisms to argue a case, no sh!t there’s other overpowered stuff. That doesn’t prove anything.
Again I think this is aimed at me because I think I’m the only one who discussed the WHC thing but it’s hard to tell because I never said nor implied otherwise to what you’ve said here… So that entire 3 paragraph WHC diatribe is kinda irrelevant? I think you’ve entirely misread everything I said? I’m honestly just thoroughly confused by your whole post.
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'I don’t really think Zealot melee < WHC melee is a statement that can be made as if it’s axiomatic.
Your words, so I don’t know why you trying to talk down WHC’s ludicrously stacked kit to drum up +30% power and 20% attack speed is anyone’s guess. Hit things in the head and they take ridiculous damage from a giant number soup cocktail of buffs, and he can spread that to multiple targets. He also has extremely high safety thanks to eternal guard and cast away. WHC melee is better at legend, and much better beyond that. Zealot can crowd cleave better and hit some light stagger breakpoints for free. You also don’t have to press T to kill some things in one shot with your ranged weapon. Apparently this is worth nerfing over everything else, because you come into this topic decrying Zealot as overpowered and needing team healing from 1 potential talent or 1 random GK quest to keep him from running over the game. You’re holding it hostage if they change how passive healing interacts with him, the passive healing he doesn’t elect to use.
I’m just trying to follow your logic, not sure if we’re just playing stupid or not here.
It’s also absolutely relevant in the scheme of ‘whataboutism’ because Fat Shark are entirely incapable of doing any two things at once, as the last update showed where they only touched elf balance. Ultimately I would rather see a bunch of just stupid content blowing nonsense gone before Zealot gets a nerf, because he isn’t that great in the scheme of the game, like honestly WHC is miles better at base cata as it is. Just Holy Fortitude should be swapped to slow the decay of THP or something instead of the current version. That has also been articulated I think well enough at this point so it’s kind of moot. You have a different value system than most credited players of this game and think differently, clearly you are a prodigy.
Sir.
You are comparing the entirety of WHC´s kit with all its components and intricacies vs the singular components of zealot being his statboosts and nothing else.
What about the benefits of higher power beyond just damage? What about damage reduction/healing allowing him to be much more aggressive? What about the essentially nonexistent downtime he has? The far superior synergy with weapons like the flail enabling a different style than WHC?
Sure he doesnt oneshot 8 or even more stormvermin in a single ability cast followed by a light attacks in the next 6 seconds, but with a flail Zealot can just as easily just heavy attack through the entire patrol, bypassing the shields entirely and staggering almost anything with high power, while also killing them fast enough.
Its not hard to do by any means. And he chews through ambient enemies and hordes far faster than WHC ever will given his statboosters never end.
…
Of course i wont argue that having a WHC is typically more beneficial for the team as a whole, i do not think anyone here does that either, however. IT IS very fair to argue that on a pure 1 to 1 comparison then its really not clear if that WHC is absolutely better than zealot in melee if talking cata and down.
Oh and in the name of fairness, one clear case where zealot is likely to be better than WHC is when the team lacks a solid frontline for whatever reason. Having someone do that job is always a huge boon for any team.
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I acknowledged in my previous post how high WHC’s damage potential is. You accused me of comparing Zealot to WHC discounting WHC’s whole kit. That wasn’t what I was trying to do at all, simply point out the things that are exclusively Zealot’s domain, and how far reaching some of those benefits are. Power giving bonuses beyond damage, tankiness allowing far more mistakes and a more aggressively playstyle, and it’s not really 20% AS when his ult gives him at least another 20% on top of that and can be up pretty ludicrously often. WHC is exceptionally good, I wouldn’t argue otherwise, @Frostysir did a pretty good job of clarifying what I was trying to get at with his post above this one.
Not really, you’ll see at the start of this topic and in numerous places I’ve agreed that I would rather see his toxic interaction with regen fixed regardless. Having specifically played the version of Zealot I was suggesting in the class rebalance mod I wanted to add other changes I felt would be healthy for him since as you point out further down, FS isn’t likely to take two separate bites at him so I would like to see all those changes bundled if they end up touching him at all. I mostly got dragged back into the regen debate over individual statements I really didn’t agree with eg this one:
I already explained why I thought that was a pretty bad comparison.
Sure, that’s a very fair point, I won’t argue regarding FS’s balance approach, I completely agree. This is already a thread about Zealot though, I didn’t make my own thread just to push for Zealot nerfs, and since, as discussed, they’re unlikely to make adjustments to Zealot more than once, I don’t think it’s irrelevant for me to lay down what I see as most essential overall changes if Zealot were to get adjusted in any way.
Perhaps different to modded players, but I don’t think modded content is relevant to balance discussion anyway. Though my suggested changes do completely mirror the rebalance mod made by Icelator, and from my discussions with other players I’ve been lead to believe that mod is primarily used for modded content, so I don’t think it’s that far off base from other dedicated players? I can imagine WHC scales extremely well into harder content, but in the context of base Cata I don’t buy that WHC is clearly superior to Zealot. They’re both exceptional for the difficulty, but at least the WHC player actually has to hit a good headshot ratio to truly get the majority of value from their class. In most cases Zealot can tank a few hits at the start of a run safely with iron will then play pretty brain-dead for an entire match and still be extremely effective.
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I think both Zealot and WHC are strong, and it’s possible to top out damage as both. I actually think they both need tuning down along with other Careers ofc.
In terms of support, with the CDR build (a build that’s weirdly underrated and underused), WHC is probably one of the best Supports in the game due to him being a top damage viable DPS.
Where I think Zealot beats WHC is on damage and survival. As one of you pointed out, WHC wins on damage up to Cata, and then Cata+ Zealot, due to survival and sustained damage output/Cleave. Another place he outdoes WHC, even on Cata, is with a SoTT or RV(ammo Talent) in the group.
It would be a whole other thread to discuss which mechanics and outliers need nerfing in detail though.
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I do agree with you overall here, an excellent comment, but i wana add that Unending hunt (cooldown build) isnt just about more support but still good damage, its outright better damage uptime against hordes if the team doesnt have a flamethrower or such that just wipes the floors.
But otherwise, being able to shout at nearly every wave that comes in results in high buff times, plus the support aspect of more horde control which ironically enables more damage. 
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staying on topic is hard 
Ehhhh, people did hear you out, they agreed for the most part and this topic is indeed not exactly new, people have asked for such a thing for a long time. Going off to tangets AFTER that has gone through can be viewed as successful enough.
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