# PREMIUM Grail Knight without REAL PREMIUM cosmetics - Challenges: "the 100%" LOCKED behind a Paywall - too expensive Price **URL:** \ **Category:** Gameplay Feedback\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774 "2020-06-23T13:43:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![LordGiggles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cab0a1/32.png) [@LordGiggles](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/LordGiggles)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 12:44pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/162 "2020-06-26T12:44:06Z")
If we’re talking about costs of stuff now I think it’s mostly worth ignoring maintenance costs unless something needs a heap of maintenance. Otherwise videogames have PC maintenance, PC original cost, internet use and a bunch of other stuff lumped in, which gets a bit silly to discuss when this is just a random tangent in another discussion completely. Like how long does a pair of boots last? Ranges from a few months to decades depending what sort of hobby you’re involved with, same with strings for a guitar depending how much you play and where you live, all sorts of stuff. Though reading you can just rely on libraries and “online sources” for most stuff, super easily. Your instrument breaking isn’t really a cost I’d factor in either, I’ve had guitars for years with no real issues bar needing to solder a new wire in (which cost about a dollar), there’s guitars from the 60s still floating around. if you’re being responsible it’s like a once a decade cost, if that. ---
**Author:** ![OrsonMaxwell](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/orsonmaxwell/32/16570_2.png) [@OrsonMaxwell](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/OrsonMaxwell)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 12:44pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/163 "2020-06-26T12:44:59Z")
Gotta add though, that doing most of that stuff adds some tangible retained value to your person - either in the form of your body’s shape and ability or in the form of skills and knowledge. Let’s be frank, playing VT2 doesn’t do you any real good. ---
**Author:** ![Adelion](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/adelion/32/27128_2.png) [@Adelion](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Adelion)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/164 "2020-06-26T13:56:48Z")
For you maybe, I’m playing Vermintide using a dance mat! But seriously, Vermintide probably improves my creativity concerning my cursing vocabulary. In a wider sense it also improves reflexes, quick thinking decision ability, coordination etc. If this is significant or useful for anything else then Vermintide is another discussion. > [@LordGiggles](#): > > Otherwise videogames have PC maintenance, PC original cost, internet use and a bunch of other stuff lumped in, which gets a bit silly to discuss when this is just a random tangent in another discussion completely. Of course, it was just a sidenote. And I said myself that there are different tiers of costs for hobbies. I just wanted to add that you should not disregard the maintenance cost with some examples. Depending on how you perform your hobby you can often stay very cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Rebel](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/rebel/32/23728_2.png) [@Rebel](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rebel)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/165 "2020-06-26T14:28:22Z")
> [@Adelion](#): > > Depending on how you perform your hobby you can often stay very cheap. Or you could even start making money. ---
**Author:** ![EmpIzza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@EmpIzza](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/EmpIzza)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/166 "2020-06-26T14:57:19Z")
> [@WhereIsBaoDur](#): > > Yeah it’s so weird to compare this DLC to previous DLCs made by the same company, or the price of the base game. I’m sorry if I sound condescending, but in this case, yes, it is a bit weird. The base game is aimed at new customers, the DLC at repeat customers. The base game has to sound good to someone who might buy it, the DLC has to sound good to people who play the game. These are not the same markets, and the value propositions do not look the same. > [@WhereIsBaoDur](#): > > How about reading, or trekking? I like to do both and they are virtually free. I wouldn’t say so, I’d estimate $2-3/h for reading (just took an average of my last kindle purchases and reading time), reading stuff online could be virtually free though (except device and ISP subscription fees), but is that what you meant? I guess libraries have books “for free” but to be fair you’d have to do some reverse calculation on your tax to the local community. Trekking (which I interpret as hiking with tent and similar gear) implies gear which easily is north of $1000, which requires quite a lot of time spend. I’m just estimating now, I think I’ve spent north of $3000 on outdoor stuff (tents, backpacks, hiking boots etc) and I’ve spent roughly a year outdoors with my gear, which comes down to approx $10/day, not counting consumables. So for the sake of argument, could we agree that trekking is $0.5/h for equipment and perhaps $0.5/h extra for food (compared to eating at home, since you eat differently and and if you are going for freeze dry food it is even more)? My point is just that there are usually a lot of costs you don’t think about associated with everything, for example apartment rent normally being in the $1-4/h interval (by owning it is ofc possible to lower it). > [@Incandescent](#): > > You can’t place an objective value on what’s being provided in the package based on external products such as cinema tickets Of course you can! That is the point of money and the idea of a price! Except the objective value there, but I’m unsure of which part of the transaction you gather has objective value. To not compare is the TV shop argument, just buy it, on a whim. Don’t think about what it is actually worth to you, the buyer (if you don’t the seller usually wins, because he has thought about how much value he captures). What else it is possible to get for that money? What difference would it make in a retirement fund over 40+ years? Why would you compare a Granny Smith with a Red Delicious for price comparisons? What would it tell you if they had the same price? Or a different price? Those two markets are close and exposed to the same market dynamics (like weather in similar locations, geography, gas-prices, season, etc), look elsewhere for comparison, for example the conserved apples or different fruits with other cycles (such as oranges). Or perhaps ice-cream? > [@Incandescent](#): > > Could you be less holier than thou please? It’s rather unbecoming and a waste of everyone’s time. Nobody here needs smug inflammatory comments in what would should be a civil discussion. Get off your high horse. I’m sorry if I sounded smug, but that does not mean I’m wrong. I mean, most scientific fields are to a large extent exposed to the above dilemma of dynamic forces? Why do you think we are stuck with _theories_ of dark energy, dark matter, super-symmetry, string theory, gravity, etc, how come we have not proven any of those yet? Simply put, dark matter is the easy fix for general relativity, since then we don’t have to say that general relativity got something wrong (for example how quantum gravity behaves or if the equivalence principle actually holds under all conditions), and politicians won’t have to defend spending billions of $ on theories which still lack empirical evidence (for example, check entropic gravity and quantised inertia, two other _theories_ on how gravity works, which do away with the, frankly quite silly, assumption that gravity has to be a fundamental force). Society by and large is guided by these social streams, you can call them paradigms, thought collectives, epistemic communities, core sets, herd behaviour, or whatever social constructivist term you fancy, but they do guide the evolution of society. And what made my blood boil with the earlier posts was the norm behaviour around computer game prices (i.e. entertainment pricing) rather than a rational one. > [@LordGiggles](#): > > > [@EmpIzza](#): > > > > you are betraying the concept of capitalism > > Is an absolutely hilarious quote, if we had flairs or user sigs here I would 100% steal that. Please do, it carries more meaning than you might think, for example that capitalism only works as long as people uphold the principles, such as making informed and rational decisions about purchases and plan their lives accordingly (by and large capitalism fails when people stop thinking and communism fails when governments don’t act in the best interest of the people, perhaps some mix would be useful?). This is one of those formulations which you laugh at when you see it, but down the line hits you like a truck when you understand what the author was actually getting at. See the paragraph above, capitalism fails when thought collectives, or herd behaviour, trumps logical thinking and individual reasoning. And that was the behaviour I witnessed in this thread which made me very upset. ---
**Author:** ![TmanDW](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/tmandw/32/28041_2.png) [@TmanDW](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/TmanDW)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/167 "2020-06-26T15:45:54Z")
Not sure I completely agree with videogames doing nothing for you. You shouldn’t overestimate it either, but it does train things like quick thinking, hand-eye coordination, tactical thinking, reflexes, communication, cooperation, etc… And then there’s also the social aspect, which is a factor that can’t be underestimated for humans. As for the rest of this discussion: We’re all confusing the concepts of _cost_, _price_, and _value_, which makes us all nisunderstand each other. Cost is literally what it costs to produce anything, like, how much resources (man hours / wages, electricity, etc.) FS must spend to create their DLC content. This is a more-or-less objectively quantifiable thing. Cost of two things, even unrelated, can be compared easily. That in turn affects price. Price is heavily affected by cost, but also by demand. This one is a bit more iffy to objectively quantify. But prices of unrelated things can be compared quite well. But then there’s value. This one is subjective. It means different things for everybody. And whether or not the value of something weighs up to its price for someone, is different for everybody. The value of unrelated things can therefore never be _objectively_ quantified and compared. When somebody says “This DLC is too expensive.”, some are taking or meaning that as “For me, the value of this DLC does not weigh up against its price.”. While others might interpret or mean that as “I think the price of this DLC is too high compared to what it costs.”. And a third group as “The cost this DLC supposedly has is not true.”. We’re all talking about something different, which has us frustrated with the discussion. Some things are opinions, which can’t be debated past a certain point. Some are factual claims, but we lack the information to properly assess them. Best we can do here is give our view and stop pissing each other off, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Incandescent](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/incandescent/32/25285_2.png) [@Incandescent](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Incandescent)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/168 "2020-06-26T15:56:58Z")
on a rating from 1-10 on how derailed and incoherent this thread has become we’re at a solid sigmar-take-the-wheel/10 ![image](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/fatshark/original/3X/b/5/b56272aed81482db9f4d403731bb51d737d725c0.png) ---
**Author:** ![Rat\_Effer](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/rat_effer/32/25401_2.png) [@Rat\_Effer](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rat_Effer)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/169 "2020-06-26T15:59:03Z")
“I’m entitled to free stuff! How dare you make me pay a whopping _ **$4** _ for a new character and $6 extra dollars for challenges and cosmetics. This outrageous, this is unfair”. Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![LordGiggles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cab0a1/32.png) [@LordGiggles](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/LordGiggles)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/170 "2020-06-26T16:37:41Z")
> [@EmpIzza](#): > > I’m sorry if I sounded smug, but that does not mean I’m wrong. I mean, most scientific fields are to a large extent exposed to the above dilemma of dynamic forces? Why do you think we are stuck with _theories_ of dark energy, dark matter, super-symmetry, string theory, gravity, etc, how come we have not proven any of those yet? Simply put, dark matter is the easy fix for general relativity, since then we don’t have to say that general relativity got something wrong (for example how quantum gravity behaves or if the equivalence principle actually holds under all conditions), and politicians won’t have to defend spending billions of $ on theories which still lack empirical evidence (for example, check entropic gravity and quantised inertia, two other _theories_ on how gravity works, which do away with the, frankly quite silly, assumption that gravity has to be a fundamental force). what did he mean by this 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![TmanDW](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/tmandw/32/28041_2.png) [@TmanDW](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/TmanDW)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/171 "2020-06-26T17:17:21Z")
You were writing your post at the same time as me, so I didn’t see it as I was writing it. But now I have to disregard my own advice and reply to you, because your reply contains some of the biggest steaming umgak I have had the misfortune of having seen being barfed onto this Sigmar-damned thread. I mean, it made me seriously consider if it’s a case of Poe’s law here. First you ramble off about completely irrelevant physics stuff just to sound smart, and then you painstakingly try to tie that towards capitalism somehow, and that whole paragraph alone would have qualified to be some sort of weird copypasta. What really made me go “…the fück?!”, however, was your brainfart about the supposed reason capitalism fails, which you try to sell as a deep epiphany. (And your analysm of communism as a desert!) You sound like someone wrote a mockery of an american 15 year old raised by Trump voters. In case of luxury products like videogames, free market capitalism works by default, since what people paid for something like that is by definition what they valued it. The “free” market going bad happens when we’re not talking about ways to waste disposable income for first world people anymore, but when it’s being applied to victims who don’t have the choice to say “No, thanks.”. If you leave stuff like healthcare to the free market, for example, you end up with ridiculously inflated insulin prices. What are the suckers going to do after all? Say no and die? Putting the failure of unchecked capitalism squarely on the side of the “consumers” (hate that term) is one of the more stupid things being believed by unfortunately large groups of people nowadays. And then literally declaring you get _upset_ because people ruin beloved capitalism by just _nOt BEinG RatIoNAl_ enough? Are you even real? ---
**Author:** ![EmpIzza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@EmpIzza](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/EmpIzza)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/172 "2020-06-26T17:42:35Z")
What? Have you even read what I wrote? > [@TmanDW](#): > > Putting the failure of unchecked capitalism squarely on the side of the “consumers” (hate that term) is one of the more stupid things being believed by unfortunately large groups of people nowadays I think you confused the concept / ideology with an implementation? I agree with your rant about a specific implementation, but what does it have to do what I wrote? I commented on the need of perfect information and rationality for capitalist ideals to work and you draw those conclusions based on what I said? Where did I state my opinion? Did I ever say it was a good or reasonable system given humanity? ---
**Author:** ![EmpIzza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@EmpIzza](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/EmpIzza)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/173 "2020-06-26T18:01:00Z")
> [@LordGiggles](#): > > what did he mean by this Fair point, I went off on a bit rant, but it’s nonetheless a meaningful rant and a valid critique of “fact”. If you want to, have a look at scientific spending fifty years ago and then now. What is the major difference? It’s who gets to approve stuff. Today large scientific investments are decided by politicians, not scientists (to be fair there are scientists in the process, but it’s nowhere close to a collegial scientific process). That is what I wrote in the text you quoted, but using other words. If you want to, Google a bit about the terms I use, if you are curious you might find it interesting (but it terms such as metaphysics and epistemology are alien the results might be a bit dense). And also vastly out of context of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Incandescent](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/incandescent/32/25285_2.png) [@Incandescent](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Incandescent)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/174 "2020-06-26T18:03:39Z")
Bro, we all know what the terms mean it’s just none of what you’ve said has anything to do with the topic at hand which is now seemingly buried under your inane rambling. ---
**Author:** ![EmpIzza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@EmpIzza](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/EmpIzza)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 6:41pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/175 "2020-06-26T18:41:37Z")
> [@Incandescent](#): > > Bro, we all know what the terms mean > [@Incandescent](#): > > You can’t place an objective value on what’s being provided in the package based on external products such as cinema tickets > > The only logical points of comparison are either products already available in the game i.e emporium cosmetics, bogenhafen etc. or similar products offered in other games such as character packs in payday 2 > > Comparing the cost of a banana and a digital product is just silly which is more or less what you’ve been doing. Also But here you don’t? You seem to make the case that I am trying to place an objective value, when I’m doing the opposite. Objective price / value is a fallacy. Why would I even try to place an objective price? Why would you? What purpose would it serve? What do you mean with “objective”, “silly” and “logical”? ---
**Author:** ![Incandescent](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/incandescent/32/25285_2.png) [@Incandescent](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Incandescent)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/176 "2020-06-26T18:46:03Z")
Equilibrium 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![OrsonMaxwell](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/orsonmaxwell/32/16570_2.png) [@OrsonMaxwell](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/OrsonMaxwell)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/177 "2020-06-26T19:30:57Z")
> [@EmpIzza](#): > > I went off on a bit rant, but it’s nonetheless a meaningful rant and a valid critique of “fact”. Not fact, but rather your lack of scientific knowledge. Therefore 100% off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Argonaut14](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/argonaut14/32/13131_2.png) [@Argonaut14](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Argonaut14)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/178 "2020-06-26T19:54:47Z")
![WhatTheEff](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/fatshark/original/3X/2/2/225529e08fa9da6658bb6eb4c313f510f5743bd9.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![EmpIzza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@EmpIzza](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/EmpIzza)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/179 "2020-06-26T20:58:46Z")
> [@OrsonMaxwell](#): > > Nit fact, but rather your lack of scientific knowledge Do enlighten me? ---
**Author:** ![Maddred](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/maddred/32/27740_2.png) [@Maddred](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Maddred)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/180 "2020-06-26T22:21:01Z")
No offence but are you drunk or somethging? You write such nonsense here, and definitely off-topic, that the brain burns out… ---
**Author:** ![Fatshark\_Hedge](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/fatshark_hedge/32/53965_2.png) [@Fatshark\_Hedge](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fatshark_Hedge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 7:32am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774/181 "2020-06-27T07:32:22Z")
I think this thread has run its course. [Previous page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774.md?page=8) [Next page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/premium-grail-knight-without-real-premium-cosmetics-challenges-the-100-locked-behind-a-paywall-too-expensive-price/39774.md?page=10)