On the current state of Huntsman

I’ll start by saying that my ideal Huntsman is one that has valid options for people with a middling aim, while still highly rewarding people with a superior aim. I don’t think the current iteration achieves either of those goals well.
Now, I’m not opposed to the idea of Sure Shot being a thing, and I actually like most of the talent changes made to Huntsman, but I think this iteration still needs a lot of polish.

Now, what are my issues with the current iteration of Huntsman?

  1. Sure Shot’s generation method is paradoxical and not rewarding
    I’m pretty sure the intent of Sure Shot was to make Huntsman more accessible, but having to get headshots in order to get free headshots is kind of a catch-22.
    Speaking as someone with a decent but not incredible aim, I didn’t really feel that Sure Shot was actually helping me all that much (especially on Longbow & Handgun).
    The exception to this rule is using Body Count, which I like a lot as a talent for people with a lesser aim or for Blunderbuss builds, but I’m not sure that it’s all that healthy for a passive to only be useful in conjunction with a specific talent (ahemsurvivalistahem).
    The other problem with Sure Shot is that it currently doesn’t reward highly skilled players, who can easily get headshots anyway, and that it doesn’t reward Longbow & Handgun as much.
    In summary, I think it would be best if Sure Shot’s generation method was something less paradoxical, and was more rewarding to people with a good aim who aren’t really affected by this passive.
    Note: I’m not sure how this can be achieved, so I highly encourage community members to propose ideas as to how both these problems can be solved.

  2. Reset is now garbage
    Reset was originally busted, but now with the stacks being reduced to 4, it’s just a bad talent.
    I suggest returning it’s 30% CDR to it, and perhaps even increasing the max stacks of Sure Shot to 5.
    This should hopefully make it a valid talent for people with a mediocre aim while keeping the other two talents better options for people with a superior aim.

  3. Waste Not Want Not’s removal lowers the skill ceiling and restricts build variety
    Removing this passive made it so you pretty much have to get Conservative Sharpshooter, and removed the ability for skillful players to use traits such as Hunter and Scrounger, which awarded their good aim with more damage/better ammo regeneration.
    The removal of this passive also heavily pushes the player to get Shot Crafter, thus limiting talent choice on the 5th row.
    My suggestion is to simply reinstate this passive in place of or alongside Poacher’s Mark.

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I agree, trait choice on weapons is alredy limited it was so nice on huntsman to not have to use a trait to get ammo rigen, now if i want to have another trait i’m forced to have ammo sustain on killing specials and it’s disappointing.
Overall i strongly agree with evrything you said.

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I dont think sureshot is fixable, it was a good idea to experiment with but in practice it cheapens Huntsman.

I think they need to go back to the drawing board with a Huntsman rework.

shortlist of my issues:

  • is it such a bad thing for a class to be difficult to use? its one class, it gives people something to work towards.

  • Rewarding headshots with no longer needing to land headshots is wierd. It makes players who can already do great things with Huntsman opressively strong, and doesnt really do much for bad Huntsmen.

  • Easier ammo generation just creates more spam, removing the need for making shots count and simplifying the already simple ranged gameplay. Granted, this is an issue for all ranged careers.

  • Free headshots as a mechanic feels very “gamey”, i know that seems like a silly thing to say, but aiming for the head for high damage feels intuitive. Aiming for the head so I can trigger a bunch of affects on my next wild shot into a crowd doesnt feel intuitive at all. It has an MMO feel to it rather than an action game feel, Huntsman is not the only offender here but Sure Shot i think is the worst case.

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I was playing him the other night, and I think my biggest complaint is that there is usually a very high chance that your shots will pierce through the enemy’s head and hit another enemy behind, eliminating your stack and making it difficult to actually build up any stacks. You can only really build stacks reliably when shooting ambient enemies or isolated elites, which is a slow going process.

Additionally, only longbow and handgun are precise enough to score headshots at that rate, and even then longbow isn’t all that accurate when moving. So we’re left with two weapons that really can’t use the passive that well outside of Body Count, and two weapons that usually spend the sure shot stack on the same shot that it’s gained.

I get what they were going for, but in practice the interactions don’t really work that well.

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Totally agree. Sure Shot is just inherently bad. It should be completely eliminated.

I wouldn’t call the design of Sure Shot paradoxical. It’s not ideal but it’s definitely not paradoxical as it rewards good aim (with highly accurate weapons). For every headshot you land you (currently) get up to four failsafes if you miss a shot. This lets you aim way more aggressively, ie. quick and dirty, than before. If you’re on high stacks, you don’t even have to aim down sights and just yolo it. DPSing a monster from behind or one with a hard to hit headshot hitbox becomes very easy.

I was playing Huntsman Handgun over the last couple of days (Cataclysm) and had a blast with this setup. I hadn’t played Huntsman since last summer, honestly. This clumsy rework rekindled my love for this career anyway.

The only issues I take with Sure Shot: It doesn’t work well (if at all) with Blunderbuss and Repeater. It removes stacks when you cleave an enemy and hit another. And it forces to use Conservative Shooter - which gives Huntsman almost 100% ammo regeneration (at least I didn’t have any problems sustaining through maps). That’s not good, either.

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I think they should make getting the staks evry tot elites/ specials killed of evry tot melee headshot to make it somewhat acceptable.

Sure shot just doesn’t work properly. It’s actually beneficial to not have stacks when you want to shoot a mauler. It’s a flawed concept and bad game design.

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It’s paradoxical in the sense that if you’re a player with mediocre aim who can’t easily get headshots, you can’t get the benefits of Sure Shot since it requires you to get headshots.
It was meant to make Huntsman more accessible but instead just buffed him for people who were already decent with him.

Sureshot is generated every x Seconds. Sureshot can stack up to 3 times. Kruber gains 10% Headshot damage for every Stack. stacks are not consumed on Headshot.

You gain stacks automatically. So if your aim is bad, you will do more Headshots thanks to the passive. If you dont use up stacks, your Headshots will do up to 30% more damage.

High skill gets rewarded by even more Headshot damage, low skill still gets the usual Headshot bonus.

Number of seconds could be something like 10 and reduced to 5 with a talent. Will definately have to be tweaked though.

Other Idea is, that multiple stacks of Sureshot massively increase super armor penetration (to actually not suck when shooting Maulers)

Also for Waste not want not, I agree it should be returned. But it should be changed, that only natural Headshots give the ammo back, not the shots that are affected by sureshot.

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You guys need to understand the logic behind what’s making this happen but it works as intended. If you have no stacks and you headshot an enemy, penetrate him and body shot another, you generate a stack without consuming a stack. If you already have a stack and repeat the same process, you generate a stack AND consume a stack because the second enemy hit is now being counted as headshot. It wouldn’t be fair make all penetrated enemies count as headshot without consuming the passive would it? The only bugged interaction is when you hit a corpse and it consumes a stack and (maybe?) when you get 2 headshots with 1 shot and only get 1 stack, but this probably doesn’t happen that much in practice anyway.

I’d rather them just revert the passive back to Waste Not, Want Not and add a talent for easier/more headshots to the level 10 row, competing with headshot damage.

Then it becomes optional, a preference purely based on weapon choice and player skill.

3 Likes

I’m not a fan of SS at all since it’s attempting to address an issue that I already saw as a non-issue but if we’re shackled to it, so be it. I’m also not really a fan of proposing what ifs since it can get a bit circlejerky and unrealistic. However, there’s no denying that Huntsman is a hot mess right now.

All that said, what if instead of headshots banking headshots, what if headshots banked crits? Up front, this still has the same problem as the current incarnation of SS that disproportionately favors manbow and handgun but maybe that can be worked out in the talents.

So something like this: ranged headshots generate a stack; max whatever. Further headshots will crit and consume a stack. Normal crit headshots will not consume stacks.

The way I see it, there are several fundamental issues with SS:

  1. Since headshots are guaranteed with stacks, Maulers that you might have been able to one tap with a bodyshot now require two hits and thus consume two stacks.

  2. Stacks are removed when the shot cleaves, even if the first hit was a headshot.

  3. It yokes you into Conservative Shooter which might be ideal on manbow/handgun, isn’t really that good on blunder.

  4. It doesn’t really make Huntsman easier to play. Not really an issue that’s for me but rather for the rationale behind the changes in the first place. This falls in line with the criticism I’ve been leveling at the changes since when they first dropped two weeks ago: whoever came up with the changes doesn’t play the career at a high enough level to have a nuanced opinion on why the career is “underpicked”.

So, what I’m getting at here is that I’d rather see headshots themselves be rewarded not non-headshots.

Fantastically put. It really makes zero sense.

As for WNWN, I don’t see why it couldn’t be added back as a part of the passive. I know there’s a conversation to be had about ranged careers having infinite ammo but I think that’s one for another time. Right now, Huntsman has to make the most concessions to have the same level of ammo generation. Maybe just level the field here and then we can deal with that elephant.

I’d rather not get into talents since this has dragged out long enough. Sorry for the novel.

edit: I reread what I typed and it’s dumb as hell. Maybe there’s something there but all that I’m proposing is headshots = crits which is stupid. It would simply boil down to “headshots crit”. Woops.

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I honestly hope FS takes notice of this proposal for the next iteration of Sure Shot. It’s quite intelligent.

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More headshot damage is useless… already a blow to the head destroys everything.

Another Idea i had today is this.

Let the Player decide when sureshot should be activated.
Eg by the special attack button.

This way when a player specifically wants to shoot them in the Body (eg Mauler, or it doesnt matter Breakpoint wise), they actually can do that. But if they are unsure in their aim and want to make sure it will be a Headshot, they can simply press the button and their next shot is a guaranteed Headshot.

Saving a couple of Sureshot stacks for CW or Bosses and not having them „wasted“ on trash could be a viable tactic. Even if you dont calculate Breakpoints, you get a feeling which enemy needs a Headshot to die and which enemies don‘t. This way if your aim isnt that good you can save your trump card for when you know it will make a difference.

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This isn’t true for charged shots on Chaos Warriors, Monsters, Bosses, and is definitely not true for non-charged shots.

@Sway While I would enjoy this, it might be a bit of a clunky mechanic to implement.

Hitting bosses in the head is totally RNG … and we can’t found an entire passive on CW. The light arrows already kill infantry units with a headshot … they are mainly used for that

You‘re right. Didn‘t really think that through. I was just spitballing. You have a better Idea what kind of buff it could give?

Speed seems kind of weird to me and crit is somewhat boring/ already a talent.

Maybe something that benefits the team?

Or increasing sureshot stacks could add effects/improve his crit aura.

It is not RNG, it’s skill-based. Which is exactly what the passive it supposed to reward alongside lowering the skill floor.
Also, it’s not based only on CW. As I explained, it also helps with Monsters, Bosses, and would potentially open up breakpoints for killing elites and specials with a single uncharged shot. Just because they are mainly used for that right now doesn’t mean it would stay that way.

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