It’s a pretty big deal to me, considering that’s like half an expedition and there’s really no reason it needs to be so toned down. Letting you start with your gear and going from normal cata through to roughly onslaught level would be a much more fun approach, over making you spent 20 minutes wandering through fairly empty maps hoping you get back to a baseline or get lucky and roll a busted boon.
I really don’t see it as an issue. Sure, the event in the first map is usually easy enough, but the gameplay in those maps is halfway to back to basics, if not more in some regards.
I doubt majority of people would play such a compulsory grind just to get to the more difficult parts. Not to neglect the fact that the second map is already difficult enough as a rule.
I’m not sure what “compulsory grind” you’re talking about here, if anything making it engaging from the start makes the grind less of a thing? The second map is generally pretty easy too, it’s not until late expedition that stuff picks up properly.
The issue is the back to basics style of grind. I rarely meet people willing to go for it so I can only guess how inexperienced players would take it. So this would alienate a lot of people.
IMHO, Chaos wastes are well balanced in all the major aspects. FS deserves praising for this one.
How is that comparable to Back to Basics? What grind is there in having your gear from the get go?
The only argument I can think of is having to grind adventure gear to get good enough gear for Chaos Wastes, but there’s multiple difficulty settings so I don’t see why a player would feel like they would have to grind to play it.
You have a lot less power, no properties nor traits. You are somewhat stronger than BtB because of the talents, though, but the situation is quite similar to the BtB. And there you need to be slow and have CC above all.
I feel like you’ve misunderstood completely what it is I was saying lol. I want you to start with your gear, and not have to grind through boring empty maps in the hopes of getting some semblance of a normal build going again.
I have completely understood it. You want to break the actually pretty good balance because you want the equipment:
I’d really much rather have my normal build but have to fight stuff that starts at normal cata level and scales well above it, over not having the stuff I normally would and having to fight mini-hordes.
With the equipment as is everything gets exponentially harder to balance by the third map at the latest (not to mention all the new bugs), without the full equipiment from the full mode it is the back to basics. And I was referring to the fact that you consider those empty maps as a problem, where I do not because, well, you scale just like they do.
It’s pretty well balanced and I wouldn’t change it at this point, but “geared up” cata has a feel which is lost with 450 HP weapons. I too would have prefered to start there and move up. The first missions have a bit of a grindy feeling with some career/weapons and that’s not huge fun to me.
As I said, it works, but after trying a few expeditions I find going back to cata adventures to be incredibly refreshing, as I find the difficulty level there (geared up) feels just fine.
I really really agree here. The first 1-3 maps are simply grindy hoping for something nice to happen to you and likely not getting it. Wait until map 3 or shrine and spend on things you want to maybe get close to where you are in adventure if you even make it that far with white weapons and no trinkets etc.
The only sensible argument against starting with your gear is that new players can hop right in and any difficulty from the get-go, so after giving away chaos wastes and having a free weekend it’s probably a really good first impression.
Bad news is, I’ve got the frames I wanted, done maybe ten complete runs of Citadel and I’ve seen everything there is to offer. The punishment of dragging my weak and underpowered character through to a shrine in the hope I get something remotely ok is too annoying, and that’s without mentioning playing alongside someone who has high crits and lightning and then it becomes a walking simulator.
Massive balancing issues with boons, the overall balance of the pilgrimage (too hard at the beginning and too easy at the end due to bonkers boons on one or two players) and realistically no reward for completing in means this mode might not last long.
This isn’t WoM and Chaos Wastes won’t sink as fast as WoM, but it’ll need some deep seated issues sorted if it’s really going to fly and not just be a flash in the pan.
I really don’t think you do lol, considering you were saying that having your gear makes the mode grindier and closer to BtB, somehow.
You absolutely don’t lol, losing a bit of power isn’t going to make 8 rats a challenge for any half competent player. Not to mention that some weapons just feel terrible without certain additions, further making exchange shrines useless.
Yeah these are basically my feelings atm too. It’s a fun mode and I played more than enough of it, but there’s just not enough long term draw there imo. Most boons are just pretty standard buffs, and you spend way too long hoping you can get back to that baseline.
Crit stuff is way overtuned in general, even outside the lightning the fact that engi can stunlock a cata grimnir boss to death with zero risk, using only one boon to do so, is insane.
I’d really rather us just start with decent weapons and get boons to buff us up beyond that baseline, similar to how hades handles stuff. Some more challenge options would be great also imo, though I’m not sure how you’d reward those. Would have been nice if we got a long term goal to work towards with stuff we find in these expeditions, but that’s not a huge deal really.
I would play Wastes more if they wouldnt have such a terrible difficulty curve.
Even during Expedition four the early nodes feel empty. Hardly ever do specials apear in meanignful quantities. The only truely dangerous god modifier is tweentch “turning random mobs into threats” lightning, which can end up in getting swamped in armor, or disablers.
For some that might feel cheap, but with the absolute power the Wastes potions hand you, and the occasional fine boon, that is still handleable. Since that is the case the “normal” wastes are just kind of boring.
People talk about how they want their properties and traits, but I really dont see how that would even be remotly balancable, even if you take the completly busted boons out of the picture.
The only threat the Wastes can throw at you is early amounts of Elites, that connect to your party, since there is hardly ways you can deal with running attacks or overheads without any stamina modifiers, which is kind of nice, because it promotes stagger careers and stamina weapons.
Putting more power into players hands at the start of the wastes, wont fix anything. It will make the experience worse.
By adding more enemies
We already have access to “more enemies” via Twitch. It makes it more interesting with the current setup. Iam not so sure it would do anyting if we had access to BCR, Stam Recovery, Barkskin and all those other goodies from the start.
I cant see a vanilla difficulty that is capable of delivering an interesting experience when you combine your gear, wastes potions and boons.
Start at cata, scale up to onslaught. Most people can’t handle onslaught with base gear, so it would be more manageable with good boons. Would also reduce the whole “One person gets a good roll and turns the whole game into a walking sim for 3 people” issue.
I don’t understand why people are saying it feels deserted. Cata games have a lot of enemies from the very beginning. I don’t like the idea of starting fully geared because it defeats the purpose of CW. It is supposed to feel like replayable progression. The reward of CW is making OP and fun builds that you can only have in a game where the build is temporary.
IMO CW is close to perfect. They just need to fix all the bugs. Talent, Floor disappearing etc… Also add a function to give other players coins. Maybe that can be done on the map screen or something idk.
Nothing about starting with your gear contradicts this at all.
Can you explain what you mean? IDK how starting fully geared doesn’t take away from progression. Or are you focused more on OP build sentence? Also when you say fully geared do you mean amulets etc… or just weapons with properties that you want or properties and traits that you want?
How would it take away from your progression? Hades doesn’t feel the need to completely gimp your gear every single run in order to have a fun feeling of power progression, if anything getting to go into runs with better gear eventually is a bit part of the long term draw there.
You don’t need to start with absolutely nothing at all to have a feeling of power progression.
I’ve never played Hades so I don’t have an opinion on their progression system. When it comes to CW red/legend weapons are obtained on the last or second to last map usually. Starting with red on the first one is definitely taking away a lot from progression, we are talking about pilgrimages that are 4 maps or 5 in CoE. You’re starting a campaign with end game gear basically. You will at most play 2 maps with blue/green weapons. I don’t know if you are also considering that traits are different in CW so you would be (potentially) gimping yourself if you use only traits from adventure mode.
On top of that if you could make weapons permanent then you’d have weapons in your inventory that will break adventure mode etc… It is more complicated than just simply letting you use your selected weapon rarity at the start.
But I still hold to my original point. All your power comes from your weapon in CW. So if you start with reds or orange you are starting a campaign with end game gear.
If the conversation was about shrines for changing properties or traits on weapons or adding traits/ properties on lower rarity weapons then that I’d be more interested in that discussion. But starting with red weapons in CW imo breaks the whole experience. And I haven’t even gone into the fact that the whole point of tempering or exchanges is to give the feeling of farming/looting items. You either get a good drop or bad drop and the feeling that comes with that.