Ogryn Havoc True Survivor with randoms (update Havoc 40 with randoms just wrapped up)

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
22

emperor knows i’m all for holidays, enjoy your life to the fullest etc.
but havoc shortly before fatsharks annually radio silence was a foreseeable mistake.
i estimate i got a week tops to make it to 40 with randoms before the capable bulk calls it a day, premades dont pop up anyways and the mode goes the way of the twins :man_shrugging:

edit:

what really pisses me off about that is people, prior to havoc being mediocre background noise, easily outplayed by better and more mechanically skilled players, now have the audacity to call themselves the baseline of highest dif clearance potential cause their classes happen to possess the necessary magic tricks for easier completion.

like proclaiming yourself heavy weight champion having shot your rival in the ring.

prior besides zoom zealot you kept up with about any mumbo jumbo cause your aim, movement and reflexes are superior.

now without the magic shield you’re condemned to watch from the sidelines…

23

Its definitely more difficult. Its also annoying how bipolar he feels. I was playing with an ogryn main friend of mine, he’s a very good player and he destroyed 35-37. Topscoring, only downing occasionally. The same player then just got annihilated over and over six games in a row. Which echoes my experience. Or even when I was playing on the early access build (which I am allowed to publicly talk about) with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm-R6IJ-wqc That was not an especially hard game for us and I’m not an experienced ogryn player so it seemed reasonable to me that experienced Ogryn players would have a much easier time than me.

FnP helps ogryn a lot in Havoc and good play can make him feel really good in the right situations. But he’s in a bad spot in general including his action economy (low everything speeds). I dunno what he needs but I’m on team buff ogryn.

24

Size does not matter…
The gunners are currently aimbots. The hit box does not matter.
But true that they have nothing to use as defense, except feel no pain (that is all except wonderful).

25

what bothers me the most right now is putting everything i got into delivering the mechanically best skill i can muster in terms of movement, aim, awareness etc and still fall behind a simple numbers game the game forces from 2 characters talents.

so far i was having a blast with ogryn in any setting or team composition cause no matter what i could rely on my personal performance.

on comes havoc and dudes previously gotten carried through I II V E G etc got the game telling them they’re the second emperor cause 2 talents of their chars give them the tools needed to overcome the obstacles personal physical skill suddenly cant compensate anymore.

for my failed havoc 40 attempts so far with branx of all things and left talent tree i was last man standing trying to stem a never ending tide, fighting ranged battles the game dictated impossible to win.

didnt playtests consider usually people playing with randos AND without voice communication at the same time?

right now, my loadout compensates somewhat for the “random” factor, yet at the same time people complain why i dont spec in supporting talents, not knowing their gameplan, skill or whether they translate my cutbacks into tangible mission progress :man_shrugging:

best appeal for darktide so far was prevailing DESPITE randoms lacking and improving as a player.

now if i dont shoehorn my character into a setting i’m not proficient in and play water boy for bubble and books i’m “getting carried”?

not very appealing at the moment to be honest.

26

I think the answer to your question here would have to be made by fatshark themselves. What is fatshark’s vision for havoc? What is the winrate that fatshark is targeting for 40? What is the intended player archetypes who are going to get value from this mode? I certainly don’t have these answers. Maybe @ strawhat or something?

Some inferences could be tried.

  • All the rewards for havoc can be achieved without hitting havoc 40, for example, so clearing 40 is basically just bragging rights. This implies a low expected win rate for 40 for most players.
  • There’s a party finder that takes the place of quickplay for this mode so I think we can assume teamwork is considered a key part of the game mode, instead of just random queueing like Auric. Logically speaking Teamwork is a huge force multiplier so it stands to reason that a game mode that’s hard for a coordinated team would be neigh impossible for an uncoordinated one. But a game mode balanced around uncoordinated gameplay would be dead easy for coordinated teams.
  • Auric still exists and Havoc is clearly very hard for most players so it stands to reason the intended customer archetype is gigasweatlords looking for bragging rights. Then again they also added low difficulty havoc variants which is most of it and you can rank down any time you want so it seems like its for gigasweats at the top and novelty chasers at the bottom? I dunno.

that’s my best guesses anyway.

I like havoc. i wish it was harder. But I’m losing games with enough regularity to make 4 stacking with my pals really fun again. I missed that. Quickplaying into an auric is fine but half the time I end up playing the ol’ True Solo Pubs modifier. I don’t enjoy that as much as playing with my friends and losing or just scraping a win.

27

Speaking of this concept, I wonder how the clear rates for hardmode twins compare to Havoc 40. Hardmode twins is imo an example of hard content that doesn’t require any coordination or special builds whatsoever, just multiple good players. To be fair though in that it’s basically just because bad players die instantly and can’t be ressed, but I think it’s an interesting design comparison anyway

28

Idk about clear rates, but imo twins HM was more of a pure skill check – you had to have 4 people that really were on their game, and it wasn’t so important exactly what their loadouts were. This is especially true b/c you can’t rez dead teammates in HM. Havoc 35-40 also requires skill but party composition and teamwork is more important – if you have bubble/chorus/beacon/shout you can win even if you make some mistakes.

29

Hardmode twins are still multiple times as hard with random builds. Picking up the usual suspects turns them into a breeze.

A day or two after twins HM went live there was a gentleman, which name I totally forgot, who pulled one win after another with three random people he picked up from the official discord.
After noticing that players in his channels changed frequently I got curious and joined one of his runs.
He assigned specific builds and the rest was history. First try they got put down. We got shooed away so the next three can hop in.

Havoc. Auric. Twins. The builds you bring heavily impact the experience you will have.

30

Interesting, and you feel like it was definitely those specific builds that did the trick, it wasn’t just that this guy was John Q Darktide? Iirc there was one ultimate gamer guy who actually soloed HM twins

The times I cleared HM twins I didn’t wear anything special for it. I don’t think there was a widely known meta like there is for havocs. Doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist tho!

31

To be fair, powercreep has increased by a couple multiple times since the hardmode twins arrived. It wasn’t much of a build check when it came out, but I’ve no doubt you could trivialize it with certain builds given how void shield HP etc works

32

He was a skilled player who knew his builds. There was no solo carrying gameplay involved. The first death was just before the last twin got his skull beat inwards.

After the rundown on how the fight plays out, all we did is call out abilities and elite spawns. The party was three Chorus Zealots and a Taunt Ogryn. Two Zealots with Chain Weapons. He picked a Combat Axe.

I probably did not quite make it clear how fast and successful he was killing those HM Twins with random discord people. When we were done, he proudly stated that he had finished the fight with a high double-digit amount of people and wanted to get it done with 100 people at least.

This was days after Twins HM released.

33

Point I was trying to make is that I beat HM twins a couple times with randoms when it came out before getting bored and we didn’t do any coordinated builds or anything of the sort at any point, just brought whatever loadouts.

I think it’s a bit revionist to liken it to the Havoc meta. On Havoc, you don’t even really get invited if you’re not gonna be part of the Chorus/VoC/Psyker clown posse. Some of the things haven’t been changed so I’m not surprised to hear people cheesed it with Chorus uptime then too, but I was thinking more about the absurd dueling sword damage on twins when I wrote that powercreep increased. I dunno if you’ve done it recently but dueling swords actually phase skip them.

34

It is every Hosts own decision what he wants to pick up.

Even if it wasnt.
I have roughly a dozen Havoc runs with three completely random people from the PF since Havoc arrived. All 40s, or 39s. People ask what the team wants them to play. I doesnt matter what class you invited. They ask what the others are running. If we still lack a Flamer, or are not covered on the corruption Aura someone will adjust or relog. Twice I had some Psyker ran Assail instead of Dome, which was covered by someone else. Zealots recently started to go for Charge instead of Chorus if we had the Chorus plus Dome combination in our team already.

Iam sure some Hosts are absolutely anal about their team comp, but in the 40s I joined, or hosted the climate was relaxed. Probably just something that happens on its own when all you care about is having fun at high Havoc, instead of wanting to beat it. (We still finish the map more often than not.)

35

Fwiw I’ve cleared thru 40 and I haven’t personally observed hosts asking for anything except for beacon. Apart from that, I’ve been in groups with people running all kinds of off-meta builds (including ogryns) and no one’s said a word of complaint. Maybe different in different regions…? On the US west coast servers people are pretty chill it seems like.

36

Dunno I get declined from 90% of parties roughly by default for applying as Ogryn. Out of the times I played other classes I got bitched at for not using chorus once and saw the same thing happening to other zealot players a couple times. Vet or Psyker I havent witnessed much of that to be fair. I think it’s naive to pretend the meta isn’t enforced via the choice of who to invite. A large amount of people who get invited just run the cookie cutter stuff to begin with, so obviously it’s relaxed because people just do it on their own. If you’re the second zealot it doesn’t matter much so nobody complains, true.
Like I’m not sure the point I’m making is clear. I’m saying you don’t notice the discrimination because your parties adhere to the meta by the time you’re in them.
An additional point to make here is that there’s mods around that let you see what someone runs before inviting them. If your host wants to he can pick the bubble psyker and chorus zealot and you won’t know he passed on the 18 people for not running those. For the record, I understand why it is that way and I can’t be mad at them for doing it, but my one criticism of that would be that it’s horribly borning to play with almost entirely the same setup every game. Pugging twins you came across new stuff that looked cool and effective every other game.

The original point I was making was that HM twins may be trivialized by certain setups but it was certainly never the community expectation to run those, whereas for Havoc it is. Since Havoc is balanced around such coordination and HM twins wasn’t really.

37

By the way, this is an argument for how a meta is enforced. People are discussing this because they’re worried about the repercussions of not having someone switch to the not-yet-checklisted meta talent. The fact that someone else had to run dome for the other psyker to feel free to swap something else is testament to the idea of “enforced” builds.

38

one interesting experience i had with havoc and this party finder:

i had not played it yet at that point, so i was just h16, buddy was already h34. we were in a strike team, and i made an invite.
someone at h29 came in, and while we were waiting for a #4, he suddenly accused me of having baited him into the team, because i was way under his havoc level, so i guess he would not progress if he played in my low level group.
he left then, and i was wondering how that happened. i didn’t “bait” anyone. he must have seen buddy at h34, so to him it looked like the invitation to the whole group was at that level.

so i guess i’ll have to grind my way through this havoc thing until i reach a rank people are satisfied with, and never touch the party finder again. and of course play the roles expected here. which are somewhat different than what i play, for example i use mostly fury zealot, but book reigns here, and your team is out of luck if you can’t heal the blight. not to mention high level ogryns who get rejected because they’re not part of this meta.

39

Imo the issue with Ogryns in Havoc is mainly how their giant hitbox interacts with lowlife vet/scab rifles who take potshots against the Ogryn sticking out beyond most cover; but now increased in speed, duration and lethality.
The results feels a bit un Ogryn like a giant glass cannon.

40

It is pretty funny that pretty much every class gets more facetank time with shooters than the big 10 foot ogre atm. I don’t think it’s down to their hitbox specifically though, just their lack of talents. Vet can get a ton of damage reduction and toughness on havoc still, and Psykers can get straight up ranged immunity when critting, for example, but Ogryn just has nothing for it. He can get some DR when there’s bleeding enemies nearby, or 22% DR off a keystone. Ehh

41

alright folks, as of 30 minutes ago i officially earned my right to speak at the big table :grin:

the team played great, though you could tell they weren’t particularly fond of having an ogryn around.

still did my best to not kick the bucket and keep pressure off the punies, i mean what else is there right now ?

for what it´s worth it goes to show havoc “can” be beaten without 2/2 zealot psyker, not that it will motivate the majority to pull off their training wheels…

one thing i´d like to add is having achieved this with a “hidden extreme modifier” :
real life :nurgle: spread
part of the family came down with …checks google for translation… gastrointestinal infection.

basically i cleaned up :face_vomiting: from sunday 11:0 pm through the whole night with no sleep and only today getting slowly out of zombie mode.
everyone´s okay though, but gotta remove the vomit ? call an ogryn, always call ogryn…

now that is what i call a hardmode modifier :rofl:

could i have done better? maybe, lack of sleep is a btch but honestly, i just wanted to get done with havoc and that damned party finder.

finally “rejected my 4ss”, not that auric maelstrom is gonna scratch that itch any longer but still, big check off that box and proud to have achieved it, with randos no less.

on the upside (despite the team being a major part when it comes to ogryn) i feel more confident updating my loadout video, this time with commentary and my ideas behind it… who knows, maybe someone will find it helpful :grin:

basically this was my current years passion project when it comes to gaming cause
(and i dont want to turn this in a personal sob story)
in the back of my head i know i need to get “treatment” early next year and quite frankly i got no idea how the meds gonna affect my skill/performance.

and having this damocles :crossed_swords: dangling above, i wanted to get this over as soon as possible, but still on my own terms (if that makes sense) :grin:

edit:
fkk me i guess. for whatever reason… in all the 800 something videos i uploaded, steam decided to mess up the audio… :face_vomiting: :rage: since i got my laptop mute when loading up i didnt notice…AAAAH

edit 2:
seems that recent windows update messed up steam recording which in turn can seperate game sound from mic anymore, me updating 2 days ago and not playing since… the beauty of causality