[Negative Feedback] How "damage reduction stacks" is changed

even 85% is one hell of a lot… It means you can basically withstand about 8 vermin overheads…

To be fair, you can absolutely play the game without stacking DR.

Plain buffs such as +30%, or +40% alone won’t be affected. Piling up those to lead to an abuse…

I just think you have a strange notion of what a “tank” in Vermintide is. What in most games is understood as a “tank” doesn’t apply here. In MMO’s or such, “tanks” do their job by soaking (the often unavoidable) damage, so their teammates don’t have to. In Vermintide, that’s not how stuff works. The whole point of the game is to avoid every hit possible. And yeah, nobody plays perfectly and you take hits anyways, and the balance of the game is that some classes like IB are more forgiving (trading in other benefits) for taking damage, but their real effectiveness is not due to them taking damage: It’s because of staggering and taunting they work in this game. And they also have to contribute to killing as well, and sometimes solo a situation as well.

FK is actually a great example for what in Vermintide could be considered a “tank”: He can stagger everything, and make space, and be with his teammates to protect them in the blonk of an eye, and reduce damage for his teammates. He has the tools for that, just fine. There is no point in stacking more damage reduction and other defensive buffs on him, because he doesn’t do his job by taking damage, he does it by bloody-battering-ramming. His current toolkit allows him to “Vermintide tank” perfectly well.

And before you start with “What about IB?”: He also doesn’t do his “tanking” job by soaking damage. He also does it with staggering / bashing, and most importantly with his taunting ult. His damage reduction just makes it easier to play him (or you’d have to play perfectly because avoiding all hits while drawing attention is hard), but it doesn’t increase his “tanking” potential.

The whole point of those super high “one hit and you die” difficulties you speak of is that you can only beat them by playing perfectly. The point is not that you need to take a class that can soak damage. Even in those situations Vermintide “tanks” still do their job not by taking hits, but by staggering, and taunting, and defending themselves with surgical precision.

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I simply said that, even with the old “damage reduction stacking”, in high contents, careers were really fragile (even IB, with Groumril Armour off)… so, reduce the damage reduction, was not needed. And, since the game loves hit us with unpredictable/bugged attacks, the problem becomes more serious.

My personal opinion.

FK vs IB, at least in this thread, is pretty off topic… but yep, in live version (I need more tests about beta), I think that IB >>> FK.

I agree with you, a tank must create space… and IB can do it without problems… thanks higher stamina regen and Groumril Armour (wichlet him to be “greedier” spamming the push-bash combo). And Groumril Curse protects him from disablers.
FK’s charge is really penalized, if a single armored enemy can stop you (I repeat: I’m talking about live version)… sure, it still gives some advantages, but nothing compared with IB’s advantages.

None said that tanks must absorb the damage like this game was MMORPG (ops, IB can still do it, thanks his ult)… but tougher you are, better you can do your job… none is perfect: we all can take damage (and, I repeat, game doesn’t help with silent backstab etc etc).

Now, I explained my opinions, let’s not continue with this off topic IB vs FK.

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I do think that just flat nerfing damage reduction stacking like this, whilst a valid fix to the problem, does end up voiding the nuance the old system had

I think just changing the more egregious elements of the groupings (i.e Barkskin+Grimnir’s+walk it off and things like that) would have been the more elegant solution. Just flat reducing the value of damage reduction imo makes it more likely that people will just avoid talents associated in exchange for just relying on barkskin and taking talents that would have more impact overall in this new system.

Edit: Damage Reduction definitely needed some adjusting though so the direction is definitely good on that front

Yeah it’s not that this doesn’t work, it’s more just that it doesn’t really tackle the root of the problem with stacking stuff like WiO, Barkskin, passive and active resistances etc.
Would like myself to see damage reduction removed from Krubers shout, rework Barkskin into something different and then just make sure that all careers that have damage resistance, have appropriate amounts of it and what makes sense for careers.

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I don’t like this because it adds another secret mechanic only known by those who read this patch note - therefore a few people.
If devs don’t like the numbers they should rather nerf the Walk it off trait and other DR sources.

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Would adding a “codex” type function into the actual game that explains mechanics and such more in depth be something you’d think would help with that?

There’s a variety of games that have such functionalities and I think it would be a boon in a game like Vermintide to have a central, developer curated, in-game, source of information for players to access.

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Well, it is a bit of an issue when players with 50 hours in don’t know that push-attacks exist, or that you can chain and bypass certain attacks to make combos, or that blocking is 360 degrees.

There was a mod meant to be like a codex called Vermitannica, but I haven’t seen anything of it and seems abandoned.

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yeah I meant one that’s official in the game and curated by FS themselves

contributions to it can obvs come from the community (I’d be a hypocrite if I weren’t keen on community collaboration) but FS can do active quality control on it and design it how they see fit

Edit: this is pretty off-topic. I’ve made a separate thread that should be linked above if anyone wants to discuss it further

It’s exactly the opposite – the devs removed the secret mechanic only known to a few people.

In the live version of the game, some DR buffs stack additively, others multiplicatively, and there’s no way to know which is which unless you read that Reddit post. Now that they are all multiplicative, it’s much more simple and elegant – the player knows that if they add a 30% DR buff they would take 30% less damage than before, no matter what other DR effects they already have.

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Yeah except you still need to know the grouping order.

Edit: Nope, that’s dumb. Ignore me.

What do you mean? Aren’t all DR buffs multiplicative now? If so, the order doesn’t matter because the result of multiplication is independent of the order or multipliers.

You right. I’m bad at doing math.

At the very least, making it all multiplicative keeps things simple.
No need to check if damage reduction a is additive or multiplicative with damage reduction b.

I’d be fine with the old grouping system assuming

  1. groupings were adjusted to prevent the overbearing/unbalanced instances
  2. there was an easy access method to know this mechanic exists and how it works

No a wiki article or reddit post is not an adequate fix

How would players know a certain reddit post exist and which one is the latest version?
No big deal anyway. The game is full of hidden stuff anyway.

No, barkskin was always applied AFTER all damage reductions as a multiplier. There were only a few instances of DR stacking additively, and they’ve merely made it consistent and less OP for the higher levels of DR stacking.

That is not how it ever worked either. All those have always been multiplicative. Damage is first applied to heat, then reduced by numb to pain and barkskin is always applied after all the other reductions. Then enfeebling flames is applied before ON the enemy, so you can see there was no way for 100% DR.

?? I didnt say that they are additive or that you can reach 100 %. I just listed the bs amount of damage reduction possibilities on other careers as a badly-informed user said that the only career that really could stack a good amount of damage reduction was IB. Which is wrong.

Ah, fair enough

You’re somewhat right. There were fewer careers in group 2 than I thought, but barkskin wasn’t multiplicative. Grimnir focus, WiO, Barkskin, Huntsman DR and one other thing were additive with one another.

Edit: Malacar posted a link a few posts above.

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