[Negative Feedback] How "damage reduction stacks" is changed

Generic damage reduction effects now stack multiplicatively rather than additively.
Previously some careers have had the potential to stack damage reduction effects in such a way that they become impervious to damage. This was changed to address the stacking of damage reduction, while also opening up more options to add more sources of damage reduction into the game.

Could you explain better this point?

Is it just… a bare nerf? It means that FK himself has less damage reduction (since it’s a sum of passive + aura)? And it means that a BW or BH or Shade (just to do a couple of examples) get less damage reduction from Footknight’s aura just because they already have some damage reduction?!

Well, I don’t like it.

4 Likes

I think this is actually a good move. This will be felt mostly on high stacking damage reductions, like IB with passive + Ult + Barkskin or something, which was too much anyways. The total effect on lower stacking damage reductions should mathematically be a lot lower, however.

But you are very correct that this is a nerf to FK. It would be better if his own passive was buffed a little to compensate.

7 Likes

“Generic damage reduction effects now stack multiplicatively rather than additively”.

Keyword being “generic”, key point being is that it’s not explained in the most detailed of ways.
For example, the aforementioned Kruber’s passive and aurial DR, as well as the reworked That’s Bloody Teamwork, we’ll need to know how stacks interact and whether the change affects these Talents at all.

4 Likes

Here’s how someone on reddit explained it.

Most notable here is the change to how damage reductions stack. This is mainly going to affect larger sources of damage reduction, like Barkskin and Ironbreaker ult.

For example, Ironbreaker’s ult gives 50% damage reduction. In the stable game, this stacks with passive to 80%, meaning he only takes 20% damage. Now, they will stack by multiplying 50% and 70%, so he will take 35% damage during his ult. Still a large reduction, but he’s taking a lot more damage than he used to.

Smaller effects like Foot Knight’s aren’t as affected. Foot Knight gets 10% damage reduction innately, plus 15% from his aura. In the stable game, they add to give 25% reduction, so he takes 75% damage. In the beta, they multiply so he takes 76.5% damage.

7 Likes

You could, effectively reach 100% damage mitigation with Krub Merc.

Every other game does damage mitigation this way nowadays.

Additional mitigation is a huge trap, as even a mere 5% damage reduction can become an effective 20% damage reduction once you reach 75% DR for example.

Also take note that DR makes healing & sustain a LOT stronger, creating further imbalance (this is why merc is de facto immortal)

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I don’t like this change in general and I would call it a flat and boring and not needed nerf…

But this point is simply ridicolous… it’s like if one FK’s ability damaged another one… career’s abilities should have positive synergies… not negative ones.

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In this case, I’m pretty sure the “PLUS 15%” means it’s calculated with an addition…

The only thing this hurts, are the classes with high DR (how many?) and the DR amulet statlines.

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I think it was just a player’s post… it wasn’t from Fatshark.

We shall see…
Due to the nature of diminishing returns, you would only lose 10%*15% DR compared to the additive formula.
It only starts hitting hard when you reach high numbers, such as IBs who have an innate 30% DR.
If he was to gain 10% DR, his effective gain would be 10%-10%*30%=7%, for a new grand total of 37%

DOTAs already have really interesting graphics on the topics of Effective Hit Points (DR x HP)

I always found DR on amulets to be a bit gimmicky since you have to pick between skaven or chaos, competing with HP and BCR/Stam…

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Previously some careers have had the potential to stack damage reduction effects in such a way that they become impervious to damage.

How is it not needed?

Also,

This was changed to address the stacking of damage reduction, while also opening up more options to add more sources of damage reduction into the game.

Seems like a good change imo.

2 Likes

Massively needed nerf. A plethora of classes could reach long windows of literal invulnerability.

1 Like

@EnragedFountain @Sleezy… I have a different opinion.

The only career that really could stack a good amount of damage reduction was IB… that, at the same time, he’s also the only pure tank.

Since in high contents one single hit can one-kill even a tank… that damage reduction was precious to mitigate this situation.

To me, this change, adds more cons than pro… for example FK sees wrongly reduced his resistance.

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This is false. Shade, merc, slayer, Pyro, zealot, etc. could all hit periods of invulnerability. The vast majority of DR passives/talents stacked additively with barkskin and walk it off, thus you only needed 20% DR to reach periods of 100% DR.

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Do you have a test to post to back that up? We don’t actually know what all changed as far as what DRs are additive vs multiplicative now.

Um …. FK has 15 % Protective Presence + 10 % No Guts no Glory, + up to 20 % Thats Bloody Teamwork. That alone make 45 % damage reduction. How much do you need? But in any case + 40 % Barskin. And theoretically properties but rarely anyone uses them.

Unchained has + 50 % Damage reduction + 15 % Numb to Pain + 40 % Barskin. Then not exactly damage reduction, but 30 % Enfeebling Flames.

And this hasn’t even considered that Enfeebling Flames help FK and Protective Presence helps Unchained.

A large amount of characters has super-high damage reduction talents like Slayer (40 %) or Bounty Hunter (30 %) or Ranger Veteran (30 %) which all work with supportive damage reduction talents.

Oh, seeing another post right now. Completely forgot about Walk it Off!! So, yea I think I understand why a nerf was inevitable.

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We don’t actually know yet how this change applies to passives, but let’s do some worst case scenario math. The new That’s Bloody Teamwork adds 5% DR per person nearby. If still additive, that puts FK at 40% DR total. If every single instance is multiplicative (quite probably not the case) we still get 0.9x0.85x0.95x0.95x0.95 which gives about 34.5% DR. Again this is worst case, and it’s a 5% loss. In exchange we got all these wonderful new DR talents for FK, including a possible 50% DR! Or 30% DR for the whole party. This seems like a fair trade to me.

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How does shade achieve invuln with 20% on crit, 40% barkskin, 10% amulet?

Merc I’d get it, with all the resistances he has…

It doesn’t hurt damage reduction directly, it adds diminishing returns to stacking damage reduction.
This change just prevents players from being invulnerable.
A career with no damage reduction will still benefit just as much as before from Walk it off Merc or Footknight’s aura.

In most cases, there is still enough damage reduction to out live an overhead.

For example:

Pre patch - Bounty Hunter with Barkskin (40%) and Job Well Done (30%)

Would reduce 150 incoming damage to 45.

Post patch - Bounty Hunter with Barkskin (40%) and Job Well Done (30%)

Would reduce 150 incoming damage to 63.


@Sleezy Currently FK Protective Presence isn’t working or at the very least, FK isn’t actually benefiting from it. Sadly can’t test if it’s additive or multiplicative.

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40 barkskin 40 WiO 20 crit.

WiO?

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