Necessary memes

  • Last Shot Power - Increased duration of buff from 10 to 15 seconds.

Let’s face it, not much players would actually run out of ammo entirely, given how easily bh can sustain ammo and how much firepower he loses when out of ammo. This will rarely ever proc if scrounger is used, and even with the updated melee kills reload talent, getting back 20% ammo, there is still too much of a risk to run low/out of ammo, especially on the higher difficulties.

If you want to encourage people to run their ammo dry, this buff isn’t that useful as it is a risk to get. Bring back the old 25% power to go along with this and then it would present a real compelling case to take the risk of running low/dry in combat. A temporary buff alone isn’t going to cut it as the risk of staying out of ammo for too long is a very real possibility and too much of a risk.

PS: I’ll also be honest, I miss my necessary memes melee bh build for a melee focused game play :frowning:

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important to remember that the ammo back on killing an elite now allows you to run Hunter for even further damage output

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It just feels clumsy to use really, with a lot of hoops to jump through to maintain that extra power. Not only do I need to rob myself of any special sniping ability because I’d be riding on 1 ammo most of the time, but it’s not like the amount given is enough to reach any major breakpoints over just having Hunter by itself.

Instead of micromanaging my passive cooldown, the duration of last shot power, my total ammo gained since I last procced melee kill reload, and trying to get down to 1 ammo by the time my passive is ready so I can shoot an elite with a crit to get my ammo, last shot power, and hunter buff back, I could just be using prize bounty and open wounds. It’s got decent ammo sustain, I don’t lose my special sniping ability, your magazine doesn’t empty when you fire so you can grab 30% damage reduction instead of melee kill reload, the Hunter buff and blessed shots cooldown sync perfectly so no micromanaging is needed, and open wounds is a much easier to use damage buff that affects the whole team and is theoretically even better now that Fatshark has made crits more consistent to get.

IMO trying to play around last shot power just feels too conditional for not enough melee gains, and comes at the cost of losing the majority of your ranged presence.

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Melee Kill Reload not stacking with Scrounger is a shame. The fact that Scrounger overwrites it though is even weirder (happens on last shot if it’s a crit).

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Oof that’s weird, but I guess it makes it more feasible to run Hunter without prize bounty on a few weapons? Which is turn lets you stack Hunter with last shot power, potentially with inspired shot too for insane bursts of melee damage.

It’s interesting, but I don’t know how to feel about it yet.

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OK. So played around with this a bit and worked out a few things. Firstly, last shot power applies the 15% damage to the shot itself, similar to hunter/open wounds (tested with rep pistol, applies to a full burst shot if you have 8 or less ammo remaining).

I see a potentially interesting synergy with rep pistol, which historically has run hunter, and generally relied on prize bounty, and not shooting too much between blessed shots being up to sustain ammo. Potentially now you could run hunter, last shot power, melee kill reload, and either weapon swap buff or cruel fortune.

Weapon swap buff is not ideal for getting melee power with rep pistol, since its alt shot seems to only give you 1 stack of melee damage, even if you hit multiple enemies with it :frowning: Conversely though rep pistol’s alt fire only consumes 1 stack of bonus range damage generated from melee attacking, and this can be used to offset the loss of Open Wounds, especially when firing your last clip, since you’ll then also be geting the 15% from last shot power (+30% on that shot in theory).

Or you can run cruel fortune so you don’t have to wait 10 seconds for your rep pistol to briefly not feel like a water pistol (which frankly it does without a crit).

In either case, if you empy your last alt shot into an elite, assuming it dies you get a clip and a half back (12 shots) immediately, as well as the juicy last shot power buff for 15 seconds (which will also apply to any of those 12 shots you decide to fire within 15 seconds). If instead you need to empty your last shots into a special or something else, well next elite you kill you’re getting ammo, so you won’t be empty for long.

Stacking all this together leads to some pretty insane bursts of melee damage. Hunter + Last shot power is giving you 35% power + 15% attack speed for 10 seconds, with last shot lingering another 5 after hunter fades. If you’re running weapon swap buff and emptied your last clip spamming left click instead of alt fire, you’re now at 50% power +15% attack speed for the first 6 atack. Stonks. The absolute carnage you could cause to a patrol emptying your last clip then running in with a 1h axe is pretty nutty.

Now I haven’t playtested all this properly yet, and I know a lot of this is finicky to do in practice, but I definitely think what we have now is infinitely more interesting and useful than necessary means on live. Pretty sure Volley bow could also run the build outlined very effectively.

2 Likes

I think it’s too early yet to cast too much judgement on Last Shot, but these are my thoughts/experiences with it so far:
The problem I found with it was I didn’t reach any significant breakpoints with my range or melee. It gave me WHC/Zealot melee breakpoints, but without their mobility, attack speed (slightly more than WHC, a lot less than Zealot), defence or durability.

I got to spam my range more, but that only felt noticeable on the Repeater Pistol/BoP, both of which still don’t work very well for BH on Cata. I just felt like I’d have been more effective by switching to the other two for melee, or by fully committing to the Volley for horde clear or the Crossbow for special/elite clear.

Just Assassin, Hunter and Weapon Swap Buff give him good breakpoints in melee. Last shot’s 15% didn’t feel like it did all that much. The attack speed buff is nice, especially since it last for 15s, but that’s only 5% more than Heretic Sighted. I had a look at the damage and it’s very similar to WHC on headshot with Deathknell or Zealot with 6 stacks and Faith’s Flurry regarding breakpoints. For the most part it means one less hit on some elites.

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All very valid, though I do think having a ranged class who can give up some of their ammo sustain in return for bursts of becoming almost max stacks Zealot in melee is cool as hell. After all, you’re still getting your guaranteed ranged crits and you should rarely be completely empty, and you’ve got your Ult as a further backup for deleting things to boot.

I believe you that in practice it’s probably a bit underwhelming. I hope it gets explored though and we can get a better feel for what this sort of build could do.

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It’s a great idea, and on paper that damage is very good. It’s just very micro heavy for the result. I agree though, quickswapping melee Bounty Hunter is something that should be explored. It’s makes for two very distinct playstyles for the career.

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You’re right on the money of how they imagined it to work imo. But there are just too many things that can go wrong in my experience. To me, the actual gameplay in a horde situation feels like:

  • Okay, down to 8 shots, blast an elite and get that nice +40% power.
  • But wait, now I have have 12 ammo, which is 4 too much and my gun isn’t loaded…
  • Alright, lets get 4 kills so i can shoot the excess 4 ammo before my passive is ready.
  • Okay, did that, but now my gun is unloaded again. Need to get 8 more kills.
  • Alright, now I’m finally ready to try and blast an elite and restart this arduous process again.

Basically, if anything goes wrong at any point, you end up with no ammo, no power, and competing with your team in your depowered state to get the final melee hit on an elite. If melee reload only gave the equivalent of one magazine back on elite kill, it would be so much better, because then you wouldn’t always be racing against the clock to reload, dump the extra ammo, and then reload again for the final shot, all before your passive is ready and before your hunter/last shot power expire. Instead, you could just get 8 kills to load your one magazine and then fire when ready.

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Yeah thats pretty much my experience too when running last shot power with the new melee kill reload. There is just too much micromanagement around it right now

Would be interesting so see melee recharge changed so the ammo restored is one magazine instead of flat 20% (maybe let it procc on specials too because it would nerf your total ammo gained)
Or switch to any melee kill giving you „one in the chamber“ when completely out of ammo.

Would also increase synergy with the weapon swap talent IMO

Ok, so I just ran a map with it. Maintaining ammo was 100% not a problem. I was running volley w/ Hunter and spamming a ton. It was easy to get kills when i ran out of ammo by either meleeing or ulting. Not an issue. There were some issues with the build:

  1. I spent SO much time reloading. Like a ton of time reloading.
  2. Sometimes I would kill an elite and my bow would be reloaded for me.
  3. sometimes I would kill an elite and I couldn’t even load my bow manually without weapon swapping twice.
  4. There aren’t enough elites on the map to maintain the buff consistently.
  5. You spend way more time shooting than in melee still. Taking the other talents would be better if you have to shoot that much.
  6. There is no in and out of melee. You are in melee and then in ranged, but not really back in forth. More accurately, just one at a time.

Solution: when you proc the melee kill, your full clip is loaded so you aren’t forced to spend your entire buff duration trying to get the damn bow to reload. Also, increase duration of the buff to 30 seconds so you get to actually engage in the melee part of the buff. With those 2 changes, I think it could be a very fun build.

3 Likes

Played this build on Cata for a while and it’s insanely good. Setup: 1h Axe (5%, 5%, Swift), 8-shooter(Armor + Crit Mult, Hunter), Charm with attack speed and armor. Tallent tree - health for kills, Necessery, Weapon swap buff, Reload, stacking ult. Tested it with every tallent at stagger level. You’re shooting allmost constantly. 4 shots for specials if no crits, full burst in some maulers or monks, or stormvermins, or even a CW can take your crit alt blow and die if you were close enough and well-aimed it. Swapping buff works fine mostly because all your shots povered. Every time you engaging some tough fights like horde or massive elite stack you’re just emtying your weapon to 0 and enjoying melee closecombat. Everything dies around you but bosses. Ult recharges really fast and since it have 1 bullet and 1 buckshot you’re spending it in EVERYTHING around. Special and no ammo? Ult, horde with berzerkers in one line? Ult, eleete needed for ult stacking? Ult. it’s challenging because you have no resists but you have your mobility. You also can kite and clear hordes of chaos and beastmens with that attackspeed and amplified axe damage. But yes, its Cata and on cata it’s not a problem to find eleetes. Even hordes can bring you some berzerkers to refill your ammo pouch. There is clearly no problems with taking back your ammo in 15 sec even in full melee without loaded ult. Why should I be in melee then? In this case it’s just more impactfull.

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Sounds like pretty good suggestions to me. Extending the time limit to 30 sec will reduce micromanagement, and loading the ammo into your magazine instead of pouch does too. Only thing I’d add is that I think the ammo received back should be one full mag instead of 20%, so that repeater can run the build without having to burn off excess ammo thats not in the mag.

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Could work better with repeater pistol. Although if you’re staying reloaded that quickly, seems like cruel fortune might be the play. Also, idk where you’re finding all these elites in Cata.

My biggest issue is that last shot’s buff with 15% AS and power is barely equal to the old 25% power buff (-10% powr, +15% AS), and then it is only temporary. It basically is a downgrade from the old talent since even at 15s, its duration isn’t significant especially when hardly anybody would have even gone for a permanent (till ammo is gained) buff in live.

You’re forgot that we have multiple threats around us. This 4 bullets enough to oneshot bodyshot cata mauler with crit and all the buffs. Also we have tousands of specials around us and those 4 bullets is hardly enough to kill even 1 with no crits. And I don’t have any problems with repeater’s reloading because it’s loads super fast. Also you have an option to reload it by killing 4 creeps. I’ll tell you a little secret. After firing there is a little delay before reload will start and you can skip it by pressing R just as you fired your shot. Dis action speeds up your reload significantly, by somthng around 30%. Also you don need to wait while your Saltz will bring da gun back after loading a shot. You can just spam LMB or press RMB just in time when ammo loaded in chamber.

About 30 sec - it’s a significant buff and I don’t think it’s needed because you can proc it and get all those 20% ammo back just in a second. When you’re firing your last shot your gun allready counts as empty which gives you 15 sec buff. But if you killed someone elite with that last bulet or alt fire it will instantly replenish your ammo. And your buff will still work in next 15 secs.
I can repeat it again for you. You dont need to loose all your ammo to prock this buff. You can run it with constant 20% of ammo which is 12 shots for 8-shooter.

Buff should be 10 seconds but devs allready buffed it with another 5 and it’s 15 now. 15 secs allows you to fight 10 sec in melee with +40% power and +35% attack speed summary(Swift, Hunter and Necessery) and gives you 5 seconds more to empty your gun and prock hunter again.

Wrong. You don’t need to run all 15 sec’s without ammunition. The old one was omega bad because you was unnable to shoot as a ranged class to make it work. But now you actually can shoot. To prock new memes you need to kill elite enemy with full alt burst of 8-shooter. Dis action will give 12 ammo back to you and 8 of them will be in your mag (or should i say chambers?) AND 15 seconds pover + AS buff. And I remind you that you can actually shoot all those 12 bullets with summary pover boost for 15%+15%+25%=55%.

In general you have 6 empovers from melee. One altshot consumes 1 stack and other 4 consumes 4 which is 5 staks consumed in total. It’s in case if you want to fire them ASAP in last 5 sec’s of your buff.

The issue I take with the extra ammo is just that it eats up extra buff time trying to get your ammo just right so you can fire your last shot before the buff ends. In practice, you spend a lot of time shooting and reloading during a buff that’s primarily meant to boost melee. To me, the cycle of play would be a lot simpler and more effective if you only got 8 ammo back, because you could just run cruel fortune and: fire at elite, kill 8 guys in next 6 seconds, fire at elite, kills 8 guys…etc. It takes several steps in the chain and reduces them to just two, you’d never have to reload, and it gives you more uptime on having a full 8-shot, critical burst with the repeater.

(Also yes, I know about manually reloading being faster)

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I got the point, but I can’t agree with it.
First - killing an elite allready gives you fully loaded mag and 4 ammo in pouch, your gun is ready to shoot right after perk’s prok, you don’t need to load first mag and you can instantly fire it in someone’s face and kill actually 4 creeps to load your last bullets.
Second - lowering recieved ammo amount to 1 mag will nerf this tallent for crossbow, it’s inapropriate. Lowering it to 15% or somthing close just to match 8-shooter’s mag will nerf it for repeater bow and a brace of pistols. And it’s still will be slight nerf for xbow.

Also, if you just killed with repeater’s alt fire some elite guy, then you have 8 shots in mag, 4 in pouch and no passive crit avalible. In this time you can spend 4 your bullets to hunt specials because you’re that crareer who should do it. And then you still have 10 seconds of constant melee to kill 4 men to make your gun fully loaded.
It’s not that simple, as you discribed, yes. It comes across of what you just said, yes. But it works great for me and others. In this case simplyfing will just nerf it greatly. Also all the point of following build is a complexity itself. It’s not about going full melee, it’s about constant use of your both melee and ranged weapons. You’re still playing ranged based class and it shouldn’t be alternateive for WHC or zealot. This buld made to tweak you to more melee then nothing, but not to completely overrun BH into WHC with different ult.
If you wanna go full melee with a bit of ranged, then you can play zealot or WHC, they’re both insanely good when it comes to melee.

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