Musings on what a "good weapon" is

[Frostysir]

@Saryk

It is vastly the case in my opinion.

Not on their own in mine .c

@Saryk

Below Legend wasn’t really part of my point, just that the general difficulty would go down and Legend wouldn’t be a challenge anymore.

A fair concern.

@Saryk

No, Cata, but that is more a flame sword problem in general. I don’t think BW with her burn boosts fares that much better.

Heavy 1 deals 12 damage without a burn boost, 23 with it…not high to be sure but notably better and the extra fire damage boosts her staves and ability damage, both which are notably more effective even on chaos warriors which makes it fine. 10 heavies is still a lot less than 23 heavies.

Now one could argue i´ve got double standards here but seeing how all of Sienna´s ranged weapons benefit from more fire damage, and her ability, i dont think the build diversity is hurt which was my goal.

To be fair though, Unchained could probably use the fire sword just as well as BW if her passive also boosted fire damage.

@Saryk

Assuming there was only one, but the rest stands. Improvise, adapt, overcome.

Adapting here tends to involve a lot of running away and finding a bomb or chance to shoot rather than actually using the melee weapon which is honestly really why i call it bad : (

@Saryk

(which the game should be balanced around)

I do agree that this should be the case but it is evidently not, not since for a long time and especially not since Grail Knight was released and always has been able to oneshot lords&bosses there.

@Saryk

I do see people using it often enough though, so I doubt it’s that unusable.

On waystalker? O_O I see it on handmaiden but not on WS.

@Saryk

Sienna’s mace

Hasnt this thing been widely considered awful for a really long time? I think i saw something about buffs or changings improving it a bit but it should still be bad if i am not mistaken.

The masterwork pistol meanwhile isnt bad as in “has no use bad/problematic use”, more like “bad for the game balance” bad.

[Frostysir]

@Incandescent

So are you arguing to give everyone talent steroids or to bring all weapons up to Sword & Dagger levels?

To me it seems easiest to just bring all weapons up closer to SnD levels and then cut down on career steroids that yield too much after that. For instance on dual swords i just want the superarmor damage on heavies buffed to like 20 and it´d be fine.

Is that a lot to ask for? .c

@Incandescent

I’ve definitely got my own ideas regarding balance changes I’d like to see but I’m just trying to figure out where you’re at on it (I agree a lot of weapons could use some tweaking on hitboxes and maybe some minor buffs here or there)

To be realistic i am probably all over the place and lacking proper direction as far as solving or really improving things go…calling a problem out for existing is easier than fixing it after all.

@Incandescent

Thing is talents impacting weapon choice is a given, it’s simply how talents work by design, you can argue it’s bad design but it’s the design we’ve got. My perspective is build diversity can be increased by improving talent choices across the board (like normalizing THP and Stagger Talent options)

I do think its bad when taken too far, as i think it is now, but i am not opposed to trying what you for instance suggest here with standardized THP&stagger even if i do not think doing so would solve some stuff like DS being too abysmal against armor.

@Incandescent

Wouldn’t be surprised if people call BH with cleave “powercreep” tho

eh its not wrong in how it makes him better, but it´d be easy to solve by just buffing enemies a bit in turn. If all careers have similar THP generation (melee careers better at it on average via their unique perks&steroids) then it becomes easier to gauge what level enemies should be at.

But now its so wildly different just that becomes hard on its own, some careers have to tiptoe around melee being extremely careful about hits while other pile through like steamtanks not giving a single happy little bugman’s about normal hits.

@James

Not every weapon is appropriate for every career and that’s fine.
Most can be bought up to a useable level though and appropriate THP & stagger talents to match said weapons would help. Bad design maybe, but it’s what we’ve got.

Having 1-2-3-X options, depending on how many there are to start with, be sub-optimal isnt a terrible thing, but when you end up like present BH with the only weapon that meshes with his THP generation being 1-2 of his 7 options, which forces those 1-2 options, then that´s a bad thing is what i am saying .c

[Incandescent]

@Frostysir

To me it seems easiest to just bring all weapons up closer to SnD levels and then cut down on career steroids that yield too much after that. For instance on dual swords i just want the superarmor damage on heavies buffed to like 20 and it´d be fine.

Is that a lot to ask for? .c

actually yes lmao

Balance is finicky, especially when it’s within the bounds of design

@Frostysir

But now its so wildly different just that becomes hard on its own, some careers have to tiptoe around melee being extremely careful about hits while other pile through like steamtanks not giving a single happy little bugman’s about normal hits.

Yeah I can agree with this. Right now THP options also pigeonhole careers into specific weapons which feels unreasonably limiting, like not just from a balancing perspective but also a “hey maybe I do actually want to play greatsword huntsman” kind of way lol

[Frostysir]

@Incandescent

actually yes lmao

Balance is finicky, especially when it’s within the bounds of design

…I meant to ask if buffing the DS superarmor damage on heavies to 20 was a lot to ask for, i know that tweaking all weapons and steroids would be a lot

[Incandescent]

still possibly yes, I’d have to run the numbers lol

[Frostysir]

@Lenny

Most certainly, there are many cases of weapons being too specialized in V2.

Generally speaking, I think they can class lock many of these weapons, because they don’t mesh well with other classes, while being perfectly fine (relatively speaking) on their respective classes.

Take for example the repeater pistol. The weapon is complete, irredeemable trash on everything but BH, because you cannot kill anything without on demand crits. Is the weapon poorly designed, or “bad”? I wouldn’t say so. It is however far, far too specialized for the BH, so there’s no reason to even have it available on other careers.

Hm i havent really used the repeater on saltz much at all, i love his other options way too much, specially the BoP and crossbow. But on Kruber the repeater isnt bad IMO, even without on demand crits.

I like being able to roll the magazine and then just blast through a heap of enemies to hit that packmaster riding the horde.

@Incandescent

still possibly yes, I’d have to run the numbers lol

…I mean surely it cant be too bad to be allowed to kill a chaos warrior in some 13 heavy attacks instead of 31 heavy attacks? T_T

[James]

Huntsman has the quality of choice in the ranged weapon department.
All 4 ranged weapons are good and work well with his kit, even blunderbuss is capable of headshots.
-Even if you have to aim slightly up and to the right for some reason-

As for Huntsman’s melee options, most are usable and can compliment his ranged choice.
The slower/low mobility weapons are typically avoided.

[Lenny]

@Frostysir

Hm i havent really used the repeater on saltz much at all, i love his other options way too much, specially the BoP and crossbow. But on Kruber the repeater isnt bad IMO, even without on demand crits.

I like being able to roll the magazine and then just blast through a heap of enemies to hit that packmaster riding the horde.

They are completely different weapons. I wouldn’t compare the hagbane bow and the longbow, just because they both contain the word “bow”.

Repeater pistol >>>> BoP any day though.

[anon38135248]

I don’t think there are really bad weapons, just weapons that require more skill and patience. It’s a fact that some weapons have great synergies with particular careers/talents/properties/traits, but in the end it’s again more about the skill than anything else.

[Frostysir]

Hm i do disagree, to a degree. Skill is indeed fundamentally very important if you want to use any weapon to any success but some weapons make that a lot easier, or more difficult, than others.

The easiest offender i can think off in the “makes things difficult” department is the elven dual swords, just because their armor damage on heavies is so low, particularly the superarmor damage. They do 8 against chaos warrios who have 250 health x)

To kill one you´d need 31 heavy attacks if you do not score any crits…now if this isnt making things silly difficult then i do not know what does. And even if you do score crits the damage isnt super high either, i think it was…25?Ish.

…

Now there are weapons that are not so straightforwardly difficult but they do exist.

[Saryk]

@Frostysir

Heavy 1 deals 12 damage without a burn boost, 23 with it…not high to be sure but notably better and the extra fire damage boosts her staves and ability damage, both which are notably more effective even on chaos warriors which makes it fine. 10 heavies is still a lot less than 23 heavies.

That’s what I meant by “not that much better”. 10 is still more than 2-4 for those you call “good” weapons. And regarding staves, it is the same argument as with fire sword regarding UC vs. BW.

@Frostysir

Now one could argue i´ve got double standards here but seeing how all of Sienna´s ranged weapons benefit from more fire damage, and her ability, i dont think the build diversity is hurt which was my goal.

I understand your argument, but then all of Saltz’s weapons benefit from Zealot’ s attack speed and power ?

@Frostysir

To be fair though, Unchained could probably use the fire sword just as well as BW if her passive also boosted fire damage.

And her staves for that matter. UC simply fares worse than BW regarding fire damage, or rather BW has a talent that boosts it.

@Frostysir

On waystalker? O_O I see it on handmaiden but not on WS.

No, on shade.

@Frostysir

The masterwork pistol meanwhile isnt bad as in “has no use bad/problematic use”, more like “bad for the game balance” bad.

That is a discussion I have avoided. It has one gimmick which is “can delete 6 SV in 2 seconds”. Great. It isn’t that op. From a Legend perspective, it’s actually laughable. Any single target high damage ranged weapon (longbow, crossbow, handgun) one-shots SVs and they fire faster than the MW pistol, which makes it terribly frustrating to shoot idle elites. Regarding patrols, Skaven patrol is rarely a huge threat and any career is capable of handling one.

From a Cataclysm point of view, the same applies for idle SVs even though it takes elven longbow 2 shots to kill. Patrol-wise… I’d argue you’re not supposed to aggro them, but in that very situation where you do aggro them, mw pistol does indeed shine. So do GK, Slayer, Shade, BH, Zealot, IB, Merc, WHC, FK, HM, UC, …

@Frostysir

The easiest offender i can think off in the “makes things difficult” department is the elven dual swords, just because their armor damage on heavies is so low, particularly the superarmor damage. They do 8 against chaos warrios who have 250 health x)

To kill one you´d need 31 heavy attacks if you do not score any crits…now if this isnt making things silly difficult then i do not know what does. And even if you do score crits the damage isnt super high either, i think it was…25?Ish.

6 dodge count, 6 stamina, +25% dodge range, and more than decent parry and push angles, with linesman on all lights and heavy linesman on all heavies. Dual swords are a defensive and horde clearing weapon. Rely on teammates, your longbow or your career skill to deal with CWs.

[Frostysir]

@Saryk

That’s what I meant by “not that much better”. 10 is still more than 2-4 for those you call “good” weapons. And regarding staves, it is the same argument as with fire sword regarding UC vs. BW.

True, the difference between good, like dual daggers or executioner and the decent like fire sword and elf 1handed sword is still large. But reducing the distance between the good 1-5 hits to the abysmal 20-31 hits is still a good thing.

Reducing it as buffing those that need the latter amount that is.

@Saryk

I understand your argument, but then all of Saltz’s weapons benefit from Zealot’ s attack speed and power ?

’
Zealot is one of the buggers who has all the steroids needed to make just about any of his weapon choices work, this perk of his is why saltzpyre overall has eaten a fair few nerfs to his weapons x)

But yeah …ahh how to word this? Lets say for firesword, i think it´d be good if the base armor damage on heavy 1 was about 20-25, that would put it as usable on both UC and pyromancer. Then tune famished flames so that it has a cap and doesnt do too much damage if needed.

@Saryk

No, on shade.

The 100% crit machine every 10-20 seconds with a stealth steroid that also oneshots anything smaller than a CW when attacking from behind with her steroid up, aye aye sir.

@Saryk

sn’t that op. From a Legend perspective, it’s actually laughable. Any single target high damage ranged weapon (longbow, crossbow, handgun) one-shots SVs and they fire faster than the MW pistol, which makes it terribly frustrating to shoot idle elites. Regarding patrols, Skaven patrol is rarely a huge threat and any career is capable of handling one.

From a Cataclysm point of view, the same applies for idle SVs even though it takes elven longbow 2 shots to kill. Patrol-wise… I’d argue you’re not supposed to aggro them, but in that very situation where you do aggro them, mw pistol does indeed shine. So do GK, Slayer, Shade, BH, Zealot, IB, Merc, WHC, FK, HM, UC, …

yeah it isnt too much on legend given many can do something similar there, but on cata it´s pretty dang powerful to be able to gun down 5 stormvermin in just a 2-3 seconds timespan with a similar cooldown.

That really kicks in hard for hordes that always have elites in them, and his boss damage is high, really high, too. Shade´s original build ate nerfs for less than what he is doing now : (

@Saryk

6 dodge count, 6 stamina, +25% dodge range, and more than decent parry and push angles, with linesman on all lights and heavy linesman on all heavies. Dual swords are a defensive and horde clearing weapon. Rely on teammates, your longbow or your career skill to deal with CWs.

A horde weapon that cant clear armor or shields, and has low stagger, is not a horde weapon at all on cata is the problem here. Sure it can clear pure chaff hordes, but it struggles badly against anything else .(

This is notable since Fatshark hasnt been balancing around anything but cata for a time anyhow.

[Saryk]

@Frostysir

Lets say for firesword, i think it´d be good if the base armor damage on heavy 1 was about 20-25, that would put it as usable on both UC and pyromancer. Then tune famished flames so that it has a cap and doesnt do too much damage if needed.

Nah, I’d go for a better way of chaining L3 and H3.

@Frostysir

The 100% crit machine every 10-20 seconds with a stealth steroid that also oneshots anything smaller than a CW when attacking from behind with her steroid up, aye aye sir.

Yeah, that’s the one
See, weapon doesn’t matter when you take the kit into account xD

@Frostysir

and his boss damage is high, really high, too.

True, I didn’t think of bosses for some reason…

@Frostysir

A horde weapon that cant clear armor or shields, and has low stagger, is not a horde weapon at all on cata is the problem here. Sure it can clear pure chaff hordes, but it struggles badly against anything else .(

I might be dumb here, but I don’t recall seeing that many elites mixed into hordes, if at all… shields, sure (but then marauder or rat with shield isn’t that much of a threat), but no elites… - other than the idle ones of course.

[Frostysir]

@Saryk

Nah, I’d go for a better way of chaining L3 and H3.

Firesword, not the other 1handed sword^^

@Saryk

Yeah, that’s the one
See, weapon doesn’t matter when you take the kit into account xD

My efforts has been in vain

@Saryk

I might be dumb here, but I don’t recall seeing that many elites mixed into hordes, if at all… shields, sure (but then marauder or rat with shield isn’t that much of a threat), but no elites… - other than the idle ones of course.

It doesn’t occur every single wave, but its not weird to get say 2 skaven waves with 3-4 stormvermin each. Meanwhile marauder shields, if only a few arent so bad but if you stack them up then they also quickly become a headache.

[Saryk]

@Frostysir

Firesword, not the other 1handed sword^^

Yes, firesword L3 is a stab and H2 has the same armor damage.
Actually when reading again I saw I wrote H3 and meant H2.

[Jaffawer]

The only good weapon is the one you enjoy playing with.

[Argonaut14]

This topic is hugely subjective opinion.

I consider coghammer on Slayer as a bad weapon purely because I find it mindless. LMB and dodge to victory, even throw in a heavy to take out some elites. For me it’s too good at everything for low effort which makes it a poor weapon.

I think Greataxe for dwarf is a better designed weapon, in that it has a fairly obvious use (taking out armour and elites) and definable drawbacks (weaker vs hordes) so it encourage players to aim towards a particular role - targetting heavies - and penalises some of the other aspects of the game by maknig you weaker vs hordes.

Krubers Greatsword is also what I consider a good weapon in that it is the opposite of the greataxe but has the same defined role for the weapon. Excellent vs hordes, weaker vs mixed hordes, even weaker vs armour - so it also guides a player into horde clear.

Of course a good player can use both well, and greataxe is boosted by RV talents for attack speed, and Greatsword is buffed by Krubers FK charge knocking something prone and so on.

A bad weapon is one that requires less thought and skill to windmill through things.

[Frostysir]

@Argonaut14

This topic is hugely subjective opinion.

Yep, there is no official standard for good and bad after all and since i proceed to then use whatever i come up with it becomes subjective by default x)

@Argonaut14

I think Greataxe for dwarf is a better designed weapon, in that it has a fairly obvious use (taking out armour and elites) and definable drawbacks (weaker vs hordes) so it encourage players to aim towards a particular role - targetting heavies - and penalises some of the other aspects of the game by maknig you weaker vs hordes.

As much as i do truly enjoy the feeling of whaming down the Greataxe on things, i honestly cant bring myself to use it as a standalone weapon since it struggles so badly with dense groups of enemies…zerker type enemies are also a terror.

@Argonaut14

Krubers Greatsword is also what I consider a good weapon in that it is the opposite of the greataxe but has the same defined role for the weapon. Excellent vs hordes, weaker vs mixed hordes, even weaker vs armour - so it also guides a player into horde clear.

I really want to like that Greatsword, but i find i have the same struggle with it as i do Keri´s dual blades. Its supposed to be a anti horde but it wasnt made with cata in mind at all, it´s really so dang bad against mixed hordes you end up eating hits no matter what, if unlucky enough to just drop dead instantly.

This is particularly easy to feel if you try to use it on pretty much any career of his except merc since the others dont have his cleave&shout for added control.

@Argonaut14

A bad weapon is one that requires less thought and skill to windmill through things.

A fair view, i also find that just mindlessly mashing the LMB is…not a very amazing gameplay as well. Having niche´s isnt bad by itself.

But when a niche is taken far, like dual blades doing 8 out 250 of a chaos warriors healthbar on a heavy attack, then i´ve got objections. And they arent the only weapons to have such extreme weaknesses to “balance out” a benefit that isnt even that beneficial. Sienna´s firesword, her mace, 1hand axe in general…

That is what i´d call poor balance, one that hurts the viability of many weapons across many careers.

[Incandescent]

@Frostysir

I really want to like that Greatsword, but i find i have the same struggle with it as i do Keri´s dual blades. Its supposed to be a anti horde but it wasnt made with cata in mind at all, it´s really so dang bad against mixed hordes you end up eating hits no matter what, if unlucky enough to just drop dead instantly.

tbh this is more of a you problem than a Greatsword problem; it’s actually really solid into mixed hordes due to its cleave values/modifiers

[Frostysir]

@Incandescent

tbh this is more of a you problem than a Greatsword problem; it’s actually really solid into mixed hordes due to its cleave values/modifiers

When i use it against say a norscan raider/mauler horde it just ends with them soaking up my heavies and remaining enemies running down on me, if i use into a skaven stormvermin horde then my heavies cant stagger more than 1 and the rest also just run down on me. And dont get me started on monks/shields T_T

Sure i can use the shout to stop them and whack a good chunk out, but doesnt that mean the weapon by itself cant handle it? From what i saw on ytube it was common for the krubs there to pull out a gun and shoot any and all elites they could after shouting…

Wana dodgespam? Sorry game is bugged as heck and enemies will initiate running attacks against stationary players, time your dodges against each or eat hits unless you´ve high mobility/stagger.