I won’t be going into details about how Blunderbuss and Reset are currently busted since I’m sure those will be balanced by the dev team.
However, I think it’s worth mentioning that I think a big part of why people are disappointed with the new rework is that skillful play is no longer rewarded as much. Headshotting to save a stack of Sureshot simply isn’t a big deal.
I think if headshots would actually reward you with a meaningful reward, then Huntsman would feel better to play and have more of an identity. For example, headshots might use a stack of Sure Shot to guarantee a crit or increase your crit chance for the next shot, etc.
Stagger and spear is calling for you. Ridiculous stagger on the horde chain makes it beyond easy to generate thp. It’s one of the few range heavy builds that I don’t mind running barkskin on because building thp is so easy with spear and stagger.
Huntsman is an elite deleter, so thp on kill is garbage naturally since his first option for killing high value targets is his ranged. Personally, if I were to swap out thp on kill, I’d change to thp on headshot/crit and buff headshot/crit overall since it’s underperforming. We really don’t need anymore thp on cleave, and huntsman has buffs to both headshots and crits.
Each special enemy killed by the group generates an stack of passive ability. Each stack causes 10% more damage from ranged headshots. Stacks up to 10 times. Remover a stack when missing a shot, or shooting the body.
Its somewhat unneeded since if you can land headshots Huntsman is more than powerful enough already.
The reason he was reworked was to allow builds that use his whole ranged arsenal (without dead talent rows for the blunderbuss that cant headshot) and to make him somewhat more usable to the average player who cant land every headshot.
IMO he does not need the new passive he has, he just needs one or two talents that synergise well with the reapeater and blunderbuss, meybe something that proccs when hitting multiple targets in a short amount of time.
The problem is that, in live version, Huntsman is much harder to play… but this difficulty doesn’t give any real reward, since there are other careers, not less strong, that can do the same things and they are muuuch easier to play (a simple example is the +50% headshot damage… seems a great advantage, but a simple Crossbow can already 1-shot-headshot any elite and special)…
Apart this, 1 headshot (or even two) = 1 stack is MUCH BETTER than walk for 50 meters. I like this idea.
Yeah, but Huntsmen had and still does have a better melee game than someone like Bounty Hunter, as well as better temp hp generation and horde clear with range. The only thing Bounty Hunter has is Crossbow and Double Shotted, the later of which most of us agree needs a nerf.
I like that they’ve made HS synergise better with bodyshot weapons, but the Sure Shot mechanic is the lamest way they could have done it. Huntsmen already bodyshots with his ult with the Blunderbuss and the Longbow and had a fine, if albeit boring cooldown reduction talent.
As Disgruntledpeasant said, one or two new talents that worked with the Blunderbuss and the Repeater would have been fine.
Honestly I disagree: BH has Rapier, one of the best weapons in entire game… Moreover Huntsman’s ult was good just to spam light arrows vs Stormvermin; but, against the other enemies (bosses included), ult doesn’t add much.
Sure, at least you can bodyshot specials, but the ult has a long cooldown, you can’t use it vs every special… Blessed Shot is much better.
I do think that having an easier career to play, but still the same difficult career to master is actually okay. You have talents that you can take instead of reset if you can always hit head. So I do think the new identity is actually interesting as we don’t really need that “noobs can’t do sh*t with it”.
Of course, we agree numbers have to be tweaked. But I’m not opposed to the new identity.
It’s actually not limited to SV. While under the ult, with a 20% stat investment + Enhanced Power the Longbow lights one shot headshot Bestigors (with One in the Eye only Enhanced Power is needed). With 10% they two shot bodyshot Maulers. With 30% + Enhanced Power it bodyshots Bestigors on the fully charge shot.
BH gets a crit every 10 or 6 seconds. It works exceedingly well with the Crossbow and that’s it. The Rapier on BH is one of the lowest damage weapons in the game unless you take the sub optimal melee build talents. Huntsmen has weapons that actually allow them to make space before taking a shot, even if surrounded by non-berserker elites, while also having practically infinite ammo even if you run Scrounger instead of Conservative Shooter on the Longbow.
I know, I think I tested Huntsman with every possible build… anyway THIS is the point.
Huntsman’s ult is an ult with a long cooldown, a short duration and with more malus (less mov speed, less dodge range, darker screen and wobble effect -thanks mods to fix the last two points-) wich needs a perfect positioning and a good aim.
I would like it did something more than oneshot a “common” elites like Bestigor (ONLY IF you hit the head and with stats/talent investment)… Or pass from three bodyshots to two vs Maulers…
Don’t forget that Huntsman, to work fine, needs precise properties… I can’t just stack 30% Power to oneshot Bestigor and then suck vs the rest.
Mainly if we compare it with BH ult, wich kills Lords in some seconds, and WS ult, wich kills 3-4 specials/elites at time (even if they aren’t on screen).
Rapier, if you hit heads, has a good damage… But, apart this, even if it can’t create space like Spear, it’s much better as pure defensive weapons (higher block cost reduction, push consume 1 stamina, etc etc).
Huntsman has an ult that makes him go invisible, get a huge damage boost, armour-piercing, massively increased reload speed and his shot take no ammo. Bluntsman was the pinnacle of ranged horde clear, hands down, nothing else competes in raw damage and killing power. Hagstalker and Fireball Pyromancer are arguably still better because they have more crowd control and versatility, but nothing compares to the horde clear that a Bluntsman brings. You could also obliterate specials from short to medium ranges, especially infantry ones, which is where you’ll fight specials 80% of the time. Bluntsman was very strong, and this rework only catapulted that into the stratosphere.
Longbow Huntsman worked great too, as Velsix stated, you could reach breakpoints to one-shot headshot elites like bestigors and stormvermin with just lights very comfortably when using ult. That’s 6 seconds, during which you can potentially kill over 10 strong elite enemies, while also being able to spam it more with decreased CDR or complete safety with invisibility. 25% crit chance also allowed you to alternate between headshots and bodyshots for elites, since you could bodyshot stormvermin and bestigors and 2 shot maulers. That is a lot more engaging and rewarding than Blessed Shots, since if you’re good at shooting and gaining headshots, that’s significantly more killing power.
Repeater Handgun is probably the #1 weapon for killing specials in the entire game (I’d say it’s overpowered) and it matched up with Huntsman extremely well. You can get headshots comfortably with it, spam it like crazy, butcher elites and hordes, kill specials and do great monster damage. It was a crazy strong versatile tool of destruction, allowing you to get loads of tHP with Burst of Enthusiasm, and kill everything really fast.
What you completely fail to take into account is HS ult and his potential with crits and headshots. Regardless of how much you played him, I don’t think you saw his true potential or how strong he really is. And you don’t quite understand how weak BH is. Remove his double-shotted and what does he have? Guaranteed crits every so often? That’s not enough to kill lots of elites in a short amount of time. Volley Crossbow even before nerf wasn’t as good as blunderbuss (although it was more versatile), and BH is probably the career that is the hardest to clutch with. His ability in no way saves him from bad situations, he doesn’t get an AoE stagger ability, or a dash, nor invisibility. He also has some of the weakest tHP generation in the entire game, and while he has good defensive weapons, Huntsman has equally good melee weapons and he also generates tHP way better as well, with either 1h sword, 1h mace or spear, and Burst of Enthusiasm essentially guarantees that you’ll never have to experience tHP decay or lack of tHP.
This rework sucked the fun and identity out of Huntsman. It didn’t add to his headshot identity, it completely removed it. It lowered the skill floor massively, while boosting his power immensely, on a career that didn’t need it. It made the career function a lot more like WS and BH, when those careers already exist and people can already choose to play those careers and leave Huntsman alone for those who actually want to play a career like Huntsman. Career variety has taken a hit.
You way undervalue Huntsman’s ult. Your wording is completely hyperbolic. I think it’s just clear that you didn’t like Huntsman. So why would you want to rework it into a BH or WS, when you can just go play BH and WS?
The only thing the ult is good for is killing monsters and lords. Take away double-shotted and it’s probably the worst ult in the game. It doesn’t save BH nor does it destroy elites.
I understand Fatshark spent time on this Huntsman’s rework, but it’s not what the class needed. I ask for a complete reversal of the rework, fix up some talents like Longshanks and Master Huntsman, and then leave the career alone.
@Rebel you know that our opinions are totally incompatible, I can’t understand because we have to repeat this every time.
I already explained every single point in more than one thread… so I will be super-brief.
Huntsman can go inv like BH has 30% damage reduction and WS has hp regen.
Blunderbuss sucks vs packmasters, even if the close range should be is reign… and the armour damage is so low every in melee range.
Longbow is much slower than Crossbow and Longbow and it has more or less the same breakpoints.
Rep Gun has heavy disadvantages like zero super-armour damage (and this means that, vs certain Lords, you can just watch), average penetration, its bullets don’t go through dead enemies, bad synergy with headshots talents, no zoom, “meh” horde damage.
Huntsman’s ult has many disadvantages, like said:
long cooldown, a short duration and with more malus (less mov speed, less dodge range, darker screen and wobble effect - thanks mods to fix the last two points -) wich needs a perfect positioning and a good aim.
Sure, it’s useful when you have some Stormvermins into the horde (only if your positioning and aim are good… this takes time and, anyway, none is perfect)… but if the other breakpoints it gives are like "killing a Mauler with two full charged arrows instead of three… sorry if I’m not so happy. A long cooldown to kill 2-3 Maulers.
Sure, the other user wrote some breakpoints, but he said you need an investment too… I don’t think that stack 30% vs Bestigor is a good thing on Huntsman. Sure, you will able to bodyshot them, but you will lose much more advantages.
What does BH do? Do you mean apart bodyshotting every special and every elite and melting bosses/lordes in some seconds? And don’t forget that, when Blessed Shot isn’t ready, you can just aim the head (and with Crossbow is even easier than Emp Bow)… exactly like Huntsman too is forced to hit heads.
Moreover, if you play him well, you can kill more or less the same number of stronger enemies that you can kill with Huntsman’s ult.
First elite dies thanks Blessed Shot > another two elites with BH’s ult > at this point the next Blessed Shot is ready > and, if you have hit the head with the ult (as HS must do as well), you will have another ult ready.
I could say the same thing to you about BH and WS.
p.s I can understand, this super-brief thread isn’t so useful to leave a feedback… but I wrote these things so many times. I simply tired.
And the point is that I’m responding to those points and saying you’re wrong.
HP regen and damage reduction does not save a career in any way at all. You’re not getting out of a situation where you’re up against a wall, or out of stamina and getting stagger locked, or there’s a huge horde with disablers mixed in and you’re alone. BH and WS cannot clutch well, HS is infinitely better for that and can save himself from any situation with ult. This comparison is pretty absurd.
Blunderbuss 1-2 shots packmasters, and 1-2 shots stormvermin. With ult you can pump out like 8 shots to kill everything in front of you, including several armoured elites, each shot capable of killing literally 6 monks or 6 maulers, and dozens of chaff infantry. So what are you on about?
Much slower? You mean slightly slower? And it’s more versatile cause you can full charge shots, half charge shots or shoot uncharged light shots for potentially much greater effect, especially when you’re under the effect of your ult. Light headshotting bestigors and 2 shotting maulers is infinitely faster than doing the same with crossbow.
This is pretty absurd. Only one standard enemy has super-armour and that is chaos warriors. You can use your ult and delete them. And by certain lords you literally mean just 1, and that is Bodvarr, which you can again just melee or ult and shoot him. You have literally infinite ammo with repeater handgun, you can right-click spam your shots into hordes and kill them. Each shot can pierce and kill several chaff infantry. It is also unparalleled in killing specials, there’s no weapon in the game better for killing specials, it’s absurd. And again, you delete bestigors, stormvermin and maulers with it. It has exceptionally fast reload speed and fire rate. Ult and you can let out like 24 shots and kill everything in front of you. And no zoom. lol. These disadvantages you listed are either complete bogus (no, this isn’t opinion), or completely pointless in comparison to the overwhelming advantages that it does have. It also synergizes better than any other weapon with Burst of Enthusiasm.
Again, this is complete nonsense. What perfect positioning are you talking about? Oh, you mean just stand in front of the horde and press F? It gives you complete freedom to snipe anything that you want and kill any special with bodyshots. With blunderbuss you can kill 24 maulers with one ult on Cataclysm. Again, an utter lie.
And what else are you going to invest? Please, do enlighten me, what do you miss out on when getting that breakpoint? What talent or properties do you miss out on? It’s only a disadvantage if there’s something you’re missing out on, otherwise if there’s nothing else to get, you’re going to get this anyways and it’s a straight advantage.
Again, complete nonsense. BH blessed shots only activate between 6-10 seconds, he is not a good career for killing large groups of elites and enemies, which is where it actually matters. Huntsman also has good monster damage, while still having infinitely better utility and survivability than BH. His ult does nothing else except kill monsters and lords. It doesn’t save him, it doesn’t help kill elites, nor specials really. Meanwhile Huntsman can bodyshot elites and specials all the same, or killing 6 elites and specials in the span of 3 seconds with repeater (way faster than anything in the game), and Huntsman gets more crits if you can get headshots which is higher reward.
It’s pointless arguing with you. It’s the same thing all over in the Nurgloth thread where you denied Huntsman being good. You can just stick to other careers, leave Huntsman alone. I don’t ask for threads to change careers I don’t like or play, you should do the same.
They have pro and cons. Regen and damage reduction don’t save you from super-bad situations like invs, but they let you to avoid those situations easily. And they are active all time.
Blunderbuss can’t one-shot packmaster. I can accept its armour damage but its monster damage should be higher. It’s ridicolous how it sucks vs a close range enemy like a packmaster… even if close range is the only sector where Blund can work.
Nope, I mean much slower. The delay before to reach the max damage is really long, while Crossbow can reach it even in hip fire.
Sure, under ult light arrows are good, but you need the ult… and, considering ults, I already explained how BH too can kill a big number of elites in few seconds.
This is false. Even under ult Rep Gun super-armour damage is really weak. And vs hordes is pretty bad since its bullets don’t go through dead bodies.
This makes me think that you don’t play Huntsman/high difficulties… but you will think the same thing about me. As said: this speech will be useless.
The properties that let you reach the highest number of breakpoint… you can’t focus on one only enemy. To bodyshot Bestigor (on ult, clear), you have to give up much more breakepoints.
And six seconds are HS’ ult duration. In six seconds, playing BH, you can easily kills 4 elites (ANY elites)… and after that you already have another ult.
With HS, during 6 seconds ult, you can kill more than 4 enemies… BUT you need headshots, an higher skill level so it’s riskier and mainly you are limited only to few enemies (example: Maulers are bullet sponges even while you are under ult… or again you still need three light arrows to kill, under ult, one Bestigor).
Even where HS should reign, there are pro and cons.
On a 6 - 10 second cooldown or you could run a Handgun Huntsman and bodyshot them whenever.
Empire Longbow can bodyshot a good portion of specials, Globadiers, Blightstormers, Wargors and Leeches are the exception. Though Leeches have a sizable head hitbox.
Warpfires, Assassins and Gunners with 0% power. (Enhanced Power)
Packmasters with 30% power. (Enhanced Power)
Not to mention, scoring a ranged Headshot + stacking crit chance bumps Huntsman’s following shots up to a 45% cit chance, until he crits. (Almost a 1 in 2 chance of an insta kill)
Ignoring Sure Shot, the rest of the Huntsman changes are pretty reasonable.
Free Shot has some synergy with Repeater Handgun and Blunderbuss, Handgun to some degree too.
Moving Makin’ It look easy to a separate row from Thrill of the Hunt improved Handgun’s DPS in general but more so against bosses.
The introduction of Power Headshot has opened up some Storm Vermin breakpoints as well as easing the packmaster breakpoint. Possibly more that I need to check.
Handgun and Blunderbuss both got their ammunition increased, Shot Crafter now restores 2 ammo with these weapons, previously only 1 ammo.
Huntsman’s damage reduction talent got reworked and combined with movement speed, offering a more consistent choice as well as suiting his anti special capabilities.
Huntsman already had more going for him than Bounty Hunter.
Better thp sustain with stagger thp + Spear, Shield weapons or mace, potentially even mace/sword.
Stealth is a valuable asset.
Headshot damage also affected melee.
More control over his ammo sustain and generally better.
While small, 5% crit aura assisted allies.
Better horde clearing with Blunderbuss and better anti elite/special with Handgun.
Isn’t that the point? He’s a headshot career, a higher skill floor/ceiling but higher reward to go along with it.
Pros and Cons are fine, that’s the whole point of having different careers, one career might suit your playstyle whilst another might not.
Point-blank shot with some pellet headshots oneshot it on Cataclysm. Crits even more so. Ult guarantees it. Or worst case scenario you could also just shoot a second shot. Reload speed is good. Packmasters are also meant to be tough, it’s not at all ridiculous.
Health regen or damage reduction doesn’t help you kill enemies faster, which is the way you avoid those situations. Stuff like that happens from time to time regardless, and in those cases HS slips away. HS also has Burst of Enthusiasm which prevents tHP decay and tops up tHP, which is HS talent comparable to damage reduction.
So how much slower is it? Hip fire is irrelevant when it’s identical to aiming, except for the increased crit chance and zoom. Again, it’s more flexible with partial charged shots and light arrow shots, which can kill enemies faster potentially.
And super-armour damage is irrelevant when it’s overwhelmingly good at everything else like being the #1 special killer and a really strong elite killer with infinite ammo, very fast reload speed and high ammo capacity. It’s obviously not as strong at clearing hordes like Bluntsman, but you can kill elites and some chaff from a horde just as well, especially with ult. That’s not what classifies as weak.
And what properties and breakpoints would those be? I’m really wondering here.
In six seconds you can loose several light headshots, with each shot killing a bestigor or stormvermin. With repeater you can kill potentially over 10 elites and specials. Blunderbuss can destroy a C3 horde with any number of maulers and berserkers in it. BH is only good at killing a small number of elites and enemies at a time, HS kills a large amount of enemies in a short amount of time with ult, and kills more elites faster during a sustained amount of time because of headshots and crits. In your example you also use your ult to just kill 2 elites, without going invisible, without getting a big damage boost to your ranged, without conserving ammunition, and without being able to horde clear as well. Killing 4 elites in a small amount of time is not an achievement in the slightest, 4 elites is not a threat.
It’s not riskier when you’re invisible, and it’s incredibly easy to land headshots with light shots in close-medium range.
Even when not getting headshots you kill more elites than in your example with BH, which by the way only shows how weak he is if his selling point is killing 4 elites. Probably not the argument you should go for. Not that I think BH is weak, he’s simply very front-loaded on monster damage which is too much, and doesn’t have as high of a power scale as HS has. Some tweaks and he’s good.