Mace and Sword Overtuned?

It feels fine to me.
The Exe Sword is still top dog IMO.

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M&S is certainly a powerhouse now, there’s no doubt about it. Not sure about overtuned, overbearing or w/e, but it’s a particularly potent all-rounder. Good mobility, good AP/single target (except monsters) and strong hordeclear. What’s worth noting is that it’s worse AP/single target than, say, executioner and 2hh, and worse hordeclear than things like greatsword and 1h swords. It’s also worth noting that decent all-rounders like this tend to shine most in QP, where you need to do a bit of everything, and currently the M&S does that very well.


Iirc, this weapon was nerfed after BtU’s release because it dealt with armor too well, right?

No, I think it’s all fine.

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After a heap of playtesting, I’m gonna revisit this and say M&S is too strong of an all-rounder currently. Namely it’s the Linesman on heavy attacks that send it over the edge, spamming heavies is the highest DPS against any enemies with the weapon now, whether it be hordes, bosses or elites. The damage of the heavies is fine, but Linesman is giving it too much cleave which pushes 1h sword too far out of the way; why take the hordeclearing specialist when you can take a more mobile hordeclearer that also crushes armour and single-target enemies?

TL;DR: remove Linesman from heavies and the weapon will be in a good place.


I heavily disagree. The weapon is supposed to be an all-rounder.
Besides, Executioner’s Sword doesn’t do much worse than S&M at horde clearing (especially on Mercenary) but absolutely destroys elites and monsters.

Could you clarify? Spamming heavies is certainly not the best DPS against elites nor bosses.

It does have too much cleave, from testing it is 9.9 +linesman on the heavies, it should be 7.78 + linesman from the patch changes, not sure where the change to 9.9 came from.


Depending on what you value M&S is quite fantastic right now. Good wave clear, decent armor damage and, for a Kruber weapon, great mobility. The only problem is the angled heavies that make it awkward to headhit CWs. The Shoulders seem to be an unavoidable obstacle at times.

It was the only real mobile option you have as Kruber, since the 1h Sword will never be anything but a gimmik with the current moveset, and the 1h Mace… well for some reason I want more than a dodge and stagger stick that has a semi effective single target heavy.

But now we have the Longsword, which for some reason basically has light weapon dodge distance and count, with more armor damage than the M&S, far easier moveset to actually hit heads and access to heavy linesman.

Both of them are in my eyes the best weapons on Kruber atm, not because of the damage, but their complete package, which makes you actually able to survive crap while dealing with it. One with easier wave clear, the other one with better elite damage (and some other gimmicks like blocking while charging a heavy). If you nerf one, the other one will just dominate that spot, or promote picking of something more specialized.

Well, actually, there’s a big problem with this weapon. The weapon model looks just not good. The mace looks ugly, and even sword is ugly. Well, of course its 3rd person animations are not good, too. But that’s general problem

Best DPS with this weapon.

Sure, but it’s slower, and thus less safe. That’s a good trade-off that makes you consider which of the attacks you want to do: light or heavy. It’s not a no-brainer.

Lights are better for low density /dispersed horde, Heavy is better for high density/focused horde.
Personally, I wouldn’t want the heavies to be only good for elites.

The trouble isn’t that it’s good at hordeclear, it should be decent at it as an all-rounder, the problem is that it’s as good as a 1h sword at hordeclear, which is an anti-horde specialist. The outlier is Linesman on the heavies because those specialists can’t keep up when a horde is climbing/dense/has marauders or gors which increase the heavy’s efficiency, and frankly its usage is a bit prevalent compared to the rest of its kit currently, if used optimally.

Then there’s the fact that for some reason its cleave, as mentioned by Pershing, is actually higher than it should be, even after Linesman, a mistake in the code.

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Regardless of the bug in the code, I don’t see how removing linesmen would make sense for the weapon. It would basically make it so heavies are almost straight-up worse than lights for hordes, which would both remove some thinking on the player’s part and make the weapon less versatile.
S&M shouldn’t be punished because 1H Sword is bad. 1H should simply be buffed.

Have you tried the M&S much recently? It feels too good at everything. It has every other part of its kit still for hordes, and heavies for priority targets, so you’d still be using them in hordes, just not FOR the hordes. The versatility wouldn’t be hurt, just the damage potential when using heavies on hordes.

There is also the fact I believe 1h sword is in a good spot, balance wise, and if it were to be buffed up to M&S’s level it would be equally absurd.

Imagine wanting S&M nerfed, fun and balanced wep.

1h sword is a bad comparison given its redundancy, no reason to bring a melee that can barely kill elites unless you enjoy gimping yourself, in which case there’s no need to ruin weapons for others.

Why do you fill the forums with junk comments like this?


1h sword is only redundant because GS and M&S were buffed in such ways. It’s not a giant nerf I’m suggesting, just something that would stop it outshining 1h sword in every way.

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Cleaving through enemies with the sweeping charged attacks is what makes S&M enjoyable to use imo. Stripping weapons of their identities so that they can occasionally be outshone by a lackluster weapon like 1h sword won’t do the game much good. Could understand if it was outrageously OP like WHC+rapier but sword and mace isn’t exactly dominating the game.

Should buff 1h sword defensive capabilities in some way to make a decent pick on huntsman or perhaps a grail knight who wants a mobile secondary, already being discussed in another thread.

How can the 1H Sword be in a good spot when it’s overshadowed by literally every other Kruber sword?
And yes, I did try the M&S a lot lately. I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree here :slight_smile:

It’s mainly because it’s a weapon that does work. It’s just not interesting, and doesn’t stand out amongst Kruber’s other weapons. Bioshift suggested increasing the headshot modifier even further in the topic for the weapon, an idea I think is very interesting and makes it distinct from Kruber’s other weapons.

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