Mace and Shield's Push-attack>Heavy combo

I’ve already posted about this in the Feedback section, but considering the most previous post with the BBB update and how this beta is finishing up soon, I need to bring attention to this once again.

Currently, the push-attack>heavy ends in a heavy mace sweep. This wasn’t the case before and this change was not mentioned anywhere in the Update notes. And because of that, I reckon this is an unintended change and would like it to be fixed before you roll out the changes in the official server.

Please bring us the push-attack>heavy shield bash back.

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Yeah I didn’t like this change either. I’m not fond of the slam-first change to the heavy combo, but I was okay with it as long as we kept the pushstab to slam combo from before the beta. But that was also changed so that pushstab chains to the (new) heavy 2 sweep attack. This was likely an accident as the patch notes make no mention of this:

-Light attack 3 now has single target armour piercing damage profile. Same as push attack.
-Push attack now chains into light attack 3.

This is because push attack chain into heavy attack 2, and they reversed heavy 1 & heavy 2 profile, so rn heavy 1 is shield bash & heavy 2 is sweep.

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Back at the start of the beta they reversed the heavy attack order, but pushstabs still chained into the shield slam. It was only after the patch that added armour pierce to light 3 that the pushstab combo was changed. So initially it was working fine and they changed it again later, probably unintentionally.

I hope they change it back because that combo was the best thing this weapon had going for it prior to the beta.

I am genuinely curious, but what’s good about the Push Attack into the slam?

They gave Mace & Shield the Shield Bash on it’s Heavy 1, meaning you can open up with it and spam it to your heart’s content by block cancelling.
Push Attack into Shield Bash was a crutch neccesary to access the slam, since it was on Heavy 2 before. Now it’s readily availiable, and such an opener is a huge part of what makes Sword & Shield so versatile.

It’s different, might rattle some muscle memory, but nothing like getting used to a Push interrupt or block cancel wouldn’t fix.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not a huge fan or turning Mace & Shield into a carbon copy of Sword & Shield and have completely different take on it, but I am simply wondering whether people actually prefer Push Attack -> Shield Slam to having Shield Slam on Heavy 1.

As I don’t like Mace & Shield that much (and I want to like it), I don’t have much experience with it. Without armory I can’t tell for sure, but it seems like L3 is also good against hordes? What I am saying that it’s possible to run the weapon into the Push Attack -> L3 spamfest, especially on someone like Ironbreaker (as far as I’m aware changes concern both Mace/Hammer & Shield) with Stamina on Heavy attacks, making basically the rest of the moveset irrelevant.

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A very safe way of pushing through almost everything (hordes, armored patrols) while also putting some damage in. Also a very satisfying attack chain, it feels stupid just using Push>Heavy and consciously seeing your character never using the Mace (this is more about the “feel” of the weapon though).

I didn’t even talk about this in my post so I don’t care. I like Mace+Shield with or without having the Shield Bash on H1. I just want the Push-Attack>Heavy Shield Bash combo back into the weapon.

I don’t think anybody who uses the Mace+Shield is in it to bring damage to the table. And as you said, if you want something that’s more versatile, you just bring Sword+Shield instead. Even though the recent buffs to it’s armor killing capacity has been buffed so it doesn’t take a century to kill a single SV, Mace+Shield was mainly being used as a stagger machine to create space and remove potential damage by knocking stuff around. In that regard, no matter how potent in damage the Push-attack>L3 is, it doesn’t compare to the value of old Push-attack>Heavy Shield bash.

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I prefer always H1 shield bash. Is Amazing when you hit a CW and stager him, or shoot down 10 horde enemies.

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Mace & Shield is now between the bret sb and imperial ss as more of a “utility” weapon. Push - L3 can stunlock CW on cata. Due to the 20% higher L3 chance of a critical hit, it is a great alternative as an offensive weapon on GK with Knight Temper talent. Playing with Handmaiden on the team is “I keep going and push - l3 all the time”. M&S has ended up as a non-skill weapon, which is an alternative to the SS for people who have trouble making constant headshots on FK.
Contrary to being a useless weapon that nobody uses, I think it’s good. Accessing heavy push from neutral stance is one of the better changes. For the first time, MS is at least pleasant to use.

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I wasn’t neccesarily arguing for it’s balance, was simply interested in the Push Attack -> Slam.
I went at length already on my take with it, and I’d rather see it as a less versatile, but more anti-armor alternative to S&S.
To me it’s still a worse S&S, which gives me all the control, anti-armor and anti-horde I need, while M&S doesn’t excel in any. The only thing going for it is applying more stagger with damage, but for me personally it’s inconsequential.
It went from bad to useable, but still far from good or unique. If it’s enough for people to disagree with me and start using it extensively, the merrier.
Considering the scope of the Beta, having at least achieved what we currently have is acceptable.

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I know, that’s why I tagged you to write my observations and … I consider the same as you when it comes to M&S. S&S is better, Bret S&S is better. But for beginner Krubers who want to play as FK or GK, it’s quite good. M&S needs better armor damage, but then it will be broken on Knight Temper’s GK.

I think that 1 weapon for beginners with insane stagger and only 1 combo is not end of the world since we’ve got a lot, lot, lot better weapons anyway. Bret Longsword and S&S will be always better i think. Since one is like little brother of exe with good def and second is just tanky headshot machine.
Personally, I have no idea what M&S ​​would have to do to catch up with S&S and not create something that would be OP.

I’m getting really tired of explaining this cause it seems like very few people have much experience with maceshield, so they pick it up for 5 minutes and think “well slam first is obviously better right? it’s just like sword and shield!”? or “it doesn’t matter than you can’t push attack into slam because you can just slam first right?”.

I’m not saying this to flex or be condescending but I’ve got over 1000 hours in vt2, the vast majority of that on kruber/bardin and I probably have more maceshield hours played than 90% of the playerbase (or more). So just trust me on this one, pushtab into slam is much better. Here’s the longer explanation:

There are two reasons why pushstab into slam is so good:

  1. The heavy sweep attack sucks.
  2. It is a very powerful and consistent combo.

So first off, if you had asked my opinion about the weapon prior to the beta I would have said that the weapon is alright, but lacks armour damage and the (old) heavy 1 attack sucks. It doesn’t cleave armour and deals mediocre damage, this forced players to rely exclusively on the pushstab’s anti armour (which they nerfed) that quickly drains stamina if used repeatedly. Now, in this beta they fixed the first problem. Adding armour damage to light 3 and enabling a pushstab to light 3 chain gives us a decent source of armour damage that doesn’t cost stamina, and a combo that lets us chain pushstabs for AP damage, with a light attack in between to halve the stamina consumption. The problem is they didn’t do anything at all to fix the weak heavy attack, just shuffled it to the back of the combo and bringing slam to the front. That change on it’s own wouldn’t be so bad (because it sucks) but then they went and changed the pushstab heavy followup combo to use the crappy heavy attack that no one likes.

Secondly the push-pushstab-slam was very, very good. It’s powerful in that it has extremely high CC potential. You can push enemies back, bash your hammer down onto anything that isn’t stunned and follow up with a wide angle slam attack. Then quickly repeat it again with no delay that could leave you vulnerable to return hits. This lets you crush entire hordes back onto themselves like a bulldozer and the infinite cleave of the slam allows you to deal with even hyperdensity. This combo is also I should point out, unique to the maceshield. Sword and axeshields don’t have much CC and rely heavily on the slam, so it makes sense for slam to be first on those weapons. However this also means you can’t pushstab into a slam with sword or axe, you chain into later heavy attacks which deal horizontal damage but little stagger.

When I say the combo is consistent I’m talking about ease of use and “accuracy”. It’s an easy combo to perform compared to others like halberd that require alternating light/heavy attacks and consistent timing with key presses. You just have to push-pushstab-slam, about the only place you can mess up here is doing a light attack instead of slam, but the window is very forgiving in terms of timing. You can’t replicate the same push-slam combo on sword/axeshield because it’s much harder to time a slam after a push without accidentally doing a pushstab instead, you have to deliberately pause which opens you up to enemy attacks. Maceshield doesn’t have this problem.

So in conclusion, this change to the heavy combo should be reverted because:

  1. The heavy attack still sucks and they didn’t do anything to buff it in this beta that would justify forcing us to use it more.
  2. Pushstab into slam is a far superior combo to pushstab into heavy 2, so losing access to it is a severe nerf to maceshield with no apparent justification.
  3. The loss of pushstab into slam also heavily nerfs the overall CC abilities of the weapon, which is the whole point of maceshield. It sacrifices raw damage potential for superior defences (block angle and stamina) compared to other weapons
  4. This is probably an unintended change given that it does not appear in any patch notes and was not requested by anyone.
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Hammer/Mace & Shield - Push attack now chains into shield slam again.

Well that settles that. Thanks Fatshark!

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Praise Sigmar…! I think I just leapt out of my chair.

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