Legend is the new Recruit

There’s potential for discussion to be had here, but keep it civil onwards please all.

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How do you remove a plug and get the remaining ones closer at the same time (under the assumption that the current difficulty “range” from Recruit to Cataclysm stays the same)?

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You’re correct. That point was kinda tangential and doesn’t stand up now I think about it more. I stand by everything else I said in that post though.

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The discussion here is more along the lines of (and it’s as old as the game itself);

Tutorial, Recruit and Veteran don’t prepare you for champion, and Champ certainly doesn’t prepare you for legend. there are so many mechanics players in Legend simply don’t have a clue about - the most recent one is people not drinking Bardin beer because they think it’s pointless. I’ve spent time coaching people about dodging, how to stagger things with a shield properly, Using Krubers charge to stun hookrats, using Unchained Fuel to the Fire can be better than the bomb balm Talent, Avoiding getting grabbed by the Spawn by dodging left instead of backwards and so on.

All BASIC STUFF the game doesn’t tell you at all. If players aren’t telling each other, how are people supposed to know?

Problem comes when someone is level 35 and has been for quite some time so they resent advice, even as they swig their fifth health potion in as many minutes as a Zealot.

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there are definitely issues with progression in Verm and loot for that matter

the game really pigeon holes you into legend full book runs or twitch mode (hoping for loot die spam) to get your loot which isn’t exactly a fun grind tbh

I remember when I was on the grind for reds and I went like 1000 hours without a red longbow despite huntsman being my most played at the time

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yeah Vermintide is hilariously bad at informing the player about mechanics or what stats mean

barely anyone knows anything about breakpoints, stagger etc. and probably no one would at all barring a handful of people if it weren’t for community efforts at discovering, learning and producing resources to share with people. Most of the knowledge in this game is community made rather than provided by fatshark which is kinda…not how it should work for basic things like “what does 10% power vs skaven do for me?”

I shouldn’t have to refer to a community built calculator for that

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Whatever happened to game guides? I used to have a stack of them back in the 90s

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I used to have a bunch of official guide books for old play station classics like Jak and Daxter, loved those things to death. They weren’t just neat for like, getting background lore and concept art but they actually provided an in-depth guide for everything so I wasn’t missing some niche thing (within reason, obvs they didn’t tell you about unintended cheese :stuck_out_tongue:).

Some games nowadays provide a digital equivalent via lore books or a codex of some sort that’s accessible either from the hub level or menu. Fatshark could stand to benefit a lot adding such a thing to the keep…it’s not like we’re short on space

I don’t wanna be like a backseat driver for FS or some sort of detractor but this stuff is just really basic stuff that’s been present in video games since the 90s

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Man that’s a great idea, having some kind of reference tome that gives a full breakdown of all game mechanics players can access.

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Yo I still want a stagger breakpoint calculator so bad :cry: Would save me a hell of a lot of time testing in modded. Again the crux of it to me is how much the game just wastes players’ time.

Heck there’s armory and bestiary doing a lot of the work for them. They just need to incorporate them and flesh them out a bit more. If they’re worried about immersion give us custom dummies we can set the difficulty and armour type for then give us an indicator when we’ve “killed” them or when we’ve successfully staggered them. There’s so much they could do with this but instead they’ve settled for just giving us no info at all in the vain hopes the player base won’t figure out a meta for themselves.

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The idea of a library room where more detailed gameplay Information appear (with more information appearing the more Tomes you collect) has been made before.

But this isn’t as easy as it sounds. At which point do you draw the line? What is basic information and what is something to complex to write out in words?

Lastly, it is a game philosphy question. In my opinion the necessary information for playing Vermintide is present in the game. The rest is being rewarded for experimentation. We can discuss about the escessiveness of needed testing to reach some conclusions, yea. But something like a dps or breaking point calculator should not be part of the official game in any form, in my opinion.

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I’m a compendium of good suggestions that’ll probably never get added to the game

the fact we need to use mods to get stats on weapons and enemies (armory and bestiary mods) and then use a community built calculator for our stats is kinda just embarrassing for a game made in this day and age

Games should get more comprehensive over time, not start lacking basic features from 20 years ago…it’s like if the next generation of cars came without airbags so we had to build our own

I would disagree with this, I shouldn’t need a mod or community resource to know what mass modifiers and such my weapon has. I’m all for “feeling things out” but there comes a point where things are just too unknown and nebulous especially given that the in-game tools such as training dummies are legitimately pretty useless given that they don’t state anywhere in-game that they use Chaos/Infantry as their armor type and we don’t have any in-game resource on enemy health values. Warframe (which is imo an extremely flawed game) at the very least gives us a comprehensive testing ground

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Considering in the 80s they had a hotline where you could call a Game Counselor if you were stuck on a level.

Seems like we’re going backwards in time.

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I agree it shouldn’t have all kinds of absolute minutae in there, but knowing that WHC Ult will knock an assassin off a player seems to be the kind of knowledge lacking in so many players, and I have been playing with people that didn’t know how to push-stab… at Legend.

But then again, push stab isn’t discussed anywhere in-game and it’s kindof a big part of the toolkit for a couple of weapons.

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Then we should start there. I agree that the testing tools should be defined and fully functional.

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Neither is tagging enemies… Something that should have been in the prologue.

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The amount of work put into mining info and the many hours cumulatively spent in modded realm suggests very strongly to the contrary to me. We all understand their philosophy but it is clearly at odds with what most people seem to actually want. There’s a point where you just can’t justify wasting this much player time with game philosophy. If there were a much better way to experiment, as you put it, without having to go into modded realm then I’d be inclined to agree with you, hence my suggestion of expanding on the dummies.

At least I do agree a full in integrated breakpoint calculator would be too far.

Edit: By the time I posted this there’d already been a back and forth on exactly this lol. I agree a more in depth in game testing ground would be preferable to spreadsheets.

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yeah I get that games need a philosophy but I mean at this point we’re at a crossroads where Fatshark is like “an elf is a featherless biped” so we show up with a Bardin and throw him into the air screaming “BEHOLD AN ELF”

y’know…to bring a classical philo reference into it

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I just don’t get how we got to this point.

80s - developers notice kids are getting frustrated with games so they hire Game Counselors they can call to help them

90s thru early 2000s - developers can’t keep up with the hotline traffic so decided to make paper game guides to assist players with all the tools they need to learn how to play the game

Today - developers releasing unfinished games and be like GOOD LUCK and unpaid community members have to make guides

Where did it all go wrong?

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Well, then you have to write faster :stuck_out_tongue: I mean it can’t be that complicated to get some better testing grounds. Just let Olesya summon an illusion for testing purposes (probably better without her bickering or the community will go mad).

Generally, there are also different ways how you get people to learn something new. In L4D for example different mechanics like stopping a Hunter jumping you, have been covered by achievements. So we don’t necessarily need some in-game guides (although a library would be neat). Just introduce Okri’s challenges for covering certain actions like: Perform five push-stabs in a row. So to avoid people doing them by coincidence. Will not explain the mechanic but it will make people curious.

Ideally, we get as mentioned above better testing grounds in form of illusions or we get a new map “Cousin Okri’s Training Grounds” where you can choose different courses at the beginning.

Well, back then it was a way to make money. Nowadays, they would have to compete with free information from community members. So why not let it make them completely anyway?

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