I think the game is still buggy at times and leaving is necessary for example getting thrown out of bounds is nice to be able to rejoin match with an alt f4 or as previously mentioned scenarios. If the game is that close where a bot would save its viable strat saved a many otherwise wasted games that way usually by other’s stalwart sacrifice.
I argue disincentives for leaving is worst for player retention.
No. I don’t want to be forced to stay in, or get banned for leaving a game where 3 vets with braced autoguns die to snipers all at once, or the psyker drops his shield and the ogryn stands outside of it and dies to the squad of reapers that’s been visible in the open for 20 seconds.
You’re only considering one side of things.
This is a tricky one, I’ve had a few leave on purpose which is frustrating in my games. They get downed & quit… It’s really tough to judge whether or not somebody leaves intentionally, disconnects, crashes, maybe even thrown out of bounce too or really has a good reason like life getting in the way, right, it’s a really grey area. I don’t think the solution is to punish necessarily, although there are times when you know they left on purpose which sucks & they basically sabotage your game. Idk, maybe they can institute some kind of metric on a player in which it maybe shows how many times they exit games within the week (Not counting disconnections of course). I really don’t know, I’m shooting in the dark here. Maybe that way people can have better judgement calls to have them in their games. I really have no clue. I’m sure somebody has better ideas than that. Even for me this has happened enough times to even comment on it. If worse comes to worse, just block the player you feel might have sabotaged you. It’s the best you can really do for now. Other than that, you’re licking your finger & sticking it in the air.
There is indication that punishment in games rarely accomplishes the intended goal,
anti-toxic punishment for example tend to result in less sportsmanship rather than improve it.
While rewards show some positive feedback, people also report that these incentives don’t lead to positive interactions that feel genuine.
it seems to me the only way to instill true sportsmanship in players is to let people interact in communal activities. a good example is the shenanigans you can do in Deeprockgalactic, from intended things like drinking beer in the lobby or shouting rock and stone, even somthing like being able to ping lots of random stuff for funny voicelines
TL:DR i think increasing the options to express communal behavior would result in more cammeraderie and thus lower the “griefing” people do.
I see you view leaving as a ‘mechanic’ you can use as a get out of ‘jail free card’ this is litterally the biggest problem IMO.
The fact that the game rewards leaving is detrimental to the games mechanics.
When you leave, what is your incentive to continue playing?
Punishing a certain behavior is not the only way to reduce the behavior, rewarding the opposite behavior is proven to be more effective.
So you queue into games with to play with randoms, but you dont want to play with random people that dont meet your standard?
Whats wrong with accepting that you get a mixed bag when queueing with randoms?
Helping out worse players to improve is genuinely a satisfying experience, you should try it.
I dont remember suggesting players be forced to do anything nor getting banned.
I think its horrible that the game rewards leaving, and I think changes should be made so that this is no longer the case.
I dont mind bad behavior being punished, I do agree that it would have to be implemented really thoroughly though.
Its important to avoid false possitives, as well as avoiding exessive punishment.
The whole point should be to make people want to actually play the game more.
Lets say I accept theese premises as stated, do you think rewarding negative actions has no effect on behavior?
Do you think removing rewards for negative actions would reduce their frequency?
I don’t know that I agree that its the only way, however, I strongly agree that fostering cammeraderie through gameplay would reduce ‘bad behavior’
I think deeprockgalactic fosters community much better than darktide, though I think the setting of darktide makes it almost impossible to implement copies of the features.
The setting of darktide really does make it hard to foster community in general.
All you can really do at the moment is just block or report them which is just okay, I guess, as a band-aid solution. It’s at least something until maybe they implement some kind of new system or even if they do, which I totally doubt because it’s Obese Shark. As for punishment, what do you suggest? Because I think that temporarily banning people is a bit too harsh & would most likely fuel things a bit too far just for leaving games regardless of any situation if you went that route. They ban people for 3-days or even up to a week straight sometimes, but that’s really for foul language, etc. Not sure exactly how you could punish specific leavers. I just find it would complicate things too much. Also, to dertermine if people are also leaving because their just a-holes is really hard to find that out as well. Like I said, it’s too much of a ‘grey area’ where that I don’t even think FS will even touch this.
Devs certainly are not keen on policing their game because players behave like children.
Generally for leavers it should be possible to poll the keyboard input and if there’s an alt+f4 followed by disconnect, don’t let the player re-enter that game so they learn that alt+f4 doesn’t help. Perhaps exclude them from joining for a couple hours if it’s repeated.
Specifically for auric & maelstrom, people can leave if they feel so because in most cases nothing of value is lost. We have plenty of such examples on Index’ channel where people bail out, and we’re better off in their absence.
Havoc is different though, you have to assemble a party and don’t have people join mid-gane, plus that terrible demotion, so leaving or trolling here has more consequences than in auric where you shrug and start a new game.
It’s not about setting if we are talking about Wh40K cause SM2 community is great.
It’s cause DT gameplay is not a coop rly, it’s 4 individualists packed in the same run. When everyone can handle anything you end up not valuing mates much.
They implemented coherency to increase the cooperation element. But it’s not about individual restrictions and punishment only. For a coop element you should organicaly feel the need to care about your mates.
etc.
That classic dungeon crawler/mmo raid party formula.
You’re not considering that the case of 3 noobs in your team on a high level difficulty shouldn’t be a normal situation. High difficulties need gatekeeping and skillcheck filter.
This whole situation was discussed 40 000 times - it never was a problem in V2, but it is in DT. And FS will never fix it.
To join another match faster which I hope goes better than the last one, because I am not interested to sit through the “You Failed” screen, which can get bugged and then hold me hostage for like 5-10 minutes.
Also I’ve played this game enough to be able to tell at a glance if the players who are still alive have what it takes to clutch and revive the team 9/10 times they don’t and I don’t care to stick around to watch it.
I agree with most of this, if there was to be some kind of punishment system it has to be implemented really smart. The point is to get people to invest more in the specific mission, not to be forced into something they dont want to do.
Like I said, Im not a game designer, I don’t know how to propperly implement a punishment to discurrage certain behaviors.
I dont know if this is possible to reliably set up, if there is a workaround people will just use that instead, players are resourceful fkers ^^
Not letting people reconnect would remove some of the incentive to get out of certain mechanics, but it does nothing to the people that leave just to queue a new game. Im not a huge fan of this idea unless its fleshed more out.
These trends are accurate, though I don’t know that I agree that we are better off in their absence. My argument is that the trend is hurting the community.
The setting in spacemarine 2 is ‘band of brothers fighting together’ the setting in darktide is ‘you are an expendable pos’ I still believe the setting is relevant.
I kinda agree that it is not entirely coop, there is limited reliance on teammates in the gameplay. I dont know that its THE reason you dont value mates as much though, the most common theme is that people leave as soon as they die, as in, people that leave are people that are unable to handle anything.
Writing this I just realized that some people might have a sense of hurt ego when dying, maybe some of the leavers do it in shame.
So you are rolling the die over and over but you dont want to deal with getting a bad roll?
If the fastest way into a new game was to not leave, would you not leave?
What I have been saying is that there should not be a reward for leaving, getting into a new game faster than playing the current one out is definetly a reward.
Your time is simply too valuable to spend time with lesser beings?
Why not try to guide and help the worse players after you died?
No, there’s a huge disincentive to not just leave in in a game that’s likely doomed to fail. I have no interest in wasting my time with the game just wasting a full minute of my time with splash screens. If they removed that or just gave the ability to skip it, more people would be inclined to stay or at least tolerate it.
At least in vermintide, the average player is more skilled than usual along with characters more powerful that someone crutching is not only possible but likely. Here it’s not the same.
Because I don’t want to. I think forcing yourself to do something that you dislike or even hate can easily cause some to quickly lose interest in the game- and generally just contrary to how the game is.
I remember when people thought leavers were a thing because of Ass title 
I agree.
Do you think helping your teammates is contrary to how the game is?
It definetly helped spread the trend, but I don’t believe its(was) the entire cause of leaving when dying.
Just like speedrunners are becomming rarer and rarer, if the game doesent reward certain behavior, people are gonna be less inclined to do it.
No nor did I say that- I said that expecting people to force themselves to stay in a game they don’t want doesn’t at all for a good time nor healthy for the game. They have the right to leave if they so choose. It’s not even a right, it’s just an axiom of online video games.
Frankly this entire argument is rather gross, as you believe you’re entitled to other people’s time, effort and will just because it mildly inconveniences you that somebody just doesn’t want to play anymore and does the reasonable thing and just stop playing. And ontop of that, you want to punish people for leaving? That can and WILL easily lead to toxicity and hatred towards others if they don’t play the same way they deemed fit.
I don’t like smite. That crap isn’t fun at all to play with and frankly just ruins the fun out of this game that I genuinely want to enjoy and play. What happens when I encounter a smite player? I can’t just leave the game like I’m usually too- I’m not allowed to. What do I do now? Do I ask him to stop? That impedes on his fun of the game and I’m forcing my will onto him. My only recourse at that is just to either troll, vote kick or just actively disengage from the team since I can’t disassociate the psyker that’s playing in way I disagree with.
“Just deal with it!” Cool, I’ll just not play the game and something that actively doesn’t hold me hostage. That’s how you make a game fail, Team fortress 2 had that in Casual mode and that completely just shut down the game for a week until they patched out.
There’s no positive incentive to stay in-game if you know it’s failing, only negative. There’s nothing to gain from staying in an obviously-doomed game.You can’t be mad at people for choosing what’s in their best interest. If you want people to stay within the match, give positive incentives and not negative;
make a re-match system so people can easily just retry the map faster than just requeing, Maybe allow people to adjust their builds during downntime, Perhaps give dead players a survo-skull to subtly impact the game- literally anything except punishing them for leaving. You give carrots to people stay, not sticks to smack their heads over for doing things in their best interest. That’s how you easily kill a video game.
We literally have that in Havoc with the deployment it’s universally hated on every part by the skill spectrum. Casuals hate it because it forces them to play in a way they don’t want or get dranked, Climbers hate it because it forces them to selectively pick and curate an increasingly dwindling playerbase of people to pick from or get deranked and Experts hate it because they can’t experiment with off-meta weapons because they’ll get deranked. NOBODY likes this, even after they removed deployments for rank 40 guys.
There have been some times I would have been able to pick someone up in a rough spot (I run with Vet teammate pickup speed + 3 trinkets with pickup speed most of the time in PUGs), and I thought, “Aww, I wish they stuck it out with us”, but to think that they should be punished for rage quitting/frustration in a VIDEO GAME…- Get a grip, some perspective, and continue on.
Depend for me if I have do all right was playing well and together with the team and got a motherfocker disabler silent or buggy on my face and die I can leave and log out and do something else who’s respect my time. Time is the most precious thing in this world probably the only one you can’t buy with money so don’t want waste it when I’m at 20 minutes and the team is wiped with a buggy trapper or dog sure I can leave I’ve waste 20 min of my life. I have already a job with some disablers in RL so don’t need another one in my hobby.
I asked because I didnt understand what you meant.
Im not expecting people to force themselves to do something they dont want to do, I said whats wrong with helping worse players.
If its so horrible for you to play with randoms, maybe you shouldnt? Find some likeminded dudes and queue with them.
You are projecting a lot here. I never said I felt entitled to anyones time, nor did I say I was inconvenienced by people leaving.
I didnt even say that I want people to be punished for leaving, I said I wouldnt mind.
I agree that a poorly implimented punishment system for leaving will do no good for the game.
You dont like when 90% of the enemies mechanics can be ignored? I dont think anyone with any noticable time in the game does.
If you ask someone to stop using smite you are not forcing anything on them, you are asking them to do something, out of their own will.
Votekicking or disengaging from the team is options that the game allows for, though I do think they can be unhealthy for community.
I never said you should be unable to leave, if it hurts you so bad to play with a specific person then leave. Again, maybe you shouldnt play with randoms?
My point is you shouldnt be rewarded for leaving.
Why should you be held hostage? Who is suggesting this?
I agree, theese are some cool ideas!
I think you misunderstood the point, when you die in a mission, it should feel bad, it should preferably feel like you could have survived the situation had you played differently.
It should not feel like a waste of time to stick around, and it definetly shouldnt feel like the best option is to ‘start over’ as in leave and queue for a new game.
This is really hard to read.
Do you want to be able to leave the game and do something else when you die to silent specialists?
You dont want to waste time when the team wipes 20 minutes in?
If this is what you mean then we agree.
This is what FS failed to translate from V2 into Darktide, or has yet to come.
In V2, most of the time, if a player dies they stick it out to be revived. There was always something to learn watching others while waiting to be revived. Also the increase of challenge and loot system. The dialogue between the U5.
Darktide has nothing of value by completing the mission, and that includes all game modes IMO.
Probably a non-influential reason for most but I would like the observation to be in 3rd person, 1st person is laggy and clunky. Its far more interesting to just watch your revive location and even then you are just waiting. Why wait when you can leave and try again?
I think allowing the player to have control and look around in 3rd person (while waiting to be revived) will help keep them in game. You can toggle between teammates and check out what everyone is wearing, see how they are actually moving in relation to fights and see the detailed maps from a new perspective.
Depends on what you mean by that specifically. i don’t think “just any” reward is enough to push players to do “just any” negative act.
But in the case of DT, I think the advantages you get out of leaving do influence people to just that. In fact, I’d argue that most mid-mission leaves happen due to this dynamic.
well yes, naturally. But if we apply that to DT let’s say if you’re down the bot comes in downed, aka no more “reward” for leaving.
Would that resolve people just flat out rage-quitting? The debate would go from i dunno
“8 out of 10 matches, someone quits” to
“4 out of 10 matches, someone rage-quits”
sure a step in the right direction but why not go all the way and go for the optimal solution?
I have nothing against the short term adjustment considering it seems easily implemented compared to implementing a bunch of social functions, but people brought up punishment which I think is the wrong course
I didn’t say I have a problem with pubs nor do I find them cumbersome. The only thing I actually said was I didn’t want to “guide the worse players after you died” after you suggested as such.
You literally can’t play this game solo. I’m practically forced to play with others if I want to play this game. If someone is using a problematic load out that is causing me grief such as shutting down the entire game, I have no other recourse besides leaving the match.
It should not require me to use external sources just to play the game in a reasonable way.
That’s not always the case. Sometimes you get effed over by things completely out of your control either due to technical errors or other team mates. Sometimes a mutant throws you off the map. sometimes you die instantly due to poxburster or crusher that spawned behind you without any cue. Sometimes your team mates decide it’ll be funny to shoot a barrel sending you off a cliff. There’s many situations in which you did absolutely nothing wrong and still get punished for it. That’s not the fault of the player, but the fault of the game.
You can’t control how other people feel. That’s just straight up. People simply have different wants out of their games and will play accordingly as such. Some people are willing to stay in the game until the end. Some other other people leave the game when they die so they can requeue and play the game sooner again. That’s not the fault of the game, that’s just people just doing what they want.
It’s just is.