Krak's issue: The Veteran's Grenade talents need to be nerfed

[Dizzy721]

@NewNoise10

I wouldn’t want to flatten the sandbox either, quite the opposite. I want every weapon to be viable on every difficulty so there’s real choice. There will always be a meta, but I don’t want any weapon to feel like a bad pick.

That’s why I’ve said we should be clear about a weapon’s role and make sure it’s effective at fulfilling that role in the environment it’s placed in. For example, if a weapon is meant for CC or anti-horde, it’s fine if it struggles against armour. But if it’s also doing a poor job clearing hordes on higher difficulties, then that’s a real problem, because it’s not doing what it’s supposed to. Hopefully that makes sense.

It makes sense but I’m not sure that this is a thing that is happening in the base game difficulties. Havoc, yeah I’ll agree this is a thing that happens with weapons because they’re tweaking so many different enemy stat values. But with the current state of the game, almost every weapon is usable in Auric, it really is only a few weapons that feel truly terrible to me. (Not unrelatedly, some of these weapons haven’t received a balance pass in years) Any weapons viable in Auric are viable in lower difficulties and some of the non-viable weapons in Auric are just fine in lower diff.

So when I read that you want to reduce effectiveness of PG on lower difficulties, it comes across as flattening weapons to boost lower picked weapons because they’re not that much different or less powerful than each other. idk.

[NewNoise10]

@Dizzy721

So when I read that you want to reduce effectiveness of PG on lower difficulties, it comes across as flattening weapons to boost lower picked weapons because they’re not that much different or less powerful than each other. idk.

Ah, yeah, that wasn’t my intention. I was just giving an example of what difficulty scaling could look like, it wasn’t a sincere suggestion.

[ramrod_ikarus]

@NewNoise10

Right now, if a weapon is too strong or too weak, the only real levers are base stats or enemy health,

Or cleave, ammu efficiency, singular attack changes,rotation changes, attack additions, adm values: damage against carapace, damage against flak, damage against unyielding, damage against maniac, damage against unarmoured of singular attacks…

[NewNoise10]

@ramrod_ikarus

Or cleave, ammu efficiency, singular attack

That would be base stats, as I mentioned.

[ramrod_ikarus]

That is what you react to?

[NewNoise10]

Perfectly reasonable to disagree with each other without needing to argue constantly.
I like balance around difficulty scaling, you don’t. What more needs to be said, realistically?

[Roibr]

Funny, cause Bleed Nade was the most popular for all the Havoc Players Endgame players with Vet, for forever. Bigger AoE, Bleed which was crazy with crits etc. Now you say Kraks are OP?

First Line you say, that other Classes have more Powerful Nades, yet you make a post about Kraks?! Sry i dont get it…

Veteran does not only refresh Nades for himself, but for the whole Team. I dont see any problem with that. What exactly is so disturbing to you coming from Kraks with a very very small AoE. They are Single Target Nades. Enemies need to hug each other to get more than one kill with it.

Look at it that way. Some Players wanna LARP, if youre Krieg or Armageddon, you need Nades or want Nade Builds since they are Bread and Butter for Trench Warfare. This is how i run both of these Characters with some variation. Why do you wanna take away fun for others. You dont need to enjoy it, but its not Game breaking or anything in any way shape or form.

Since when is Kraks ruining Game Balance? Players always find something new to stomp into the Ground even if it didnt deserve it.

Nades a are a part, for some a big part of a Build i agree, but bad game balancing i disagree. How many Guns are actually viable for Vet?! maybe 30% of the ranged Weapons? Bolter, Las, Plasma. The rest is still meh since Launch even after rework, after rework of Ranged Weapons specifically Stubbers.

Kraks like the Name suggest, is to “crack” Armor. High Single Target Armor Penetration damage.

Dont forget, if you dont play Havoc 40, talking about balancing, is kind of a waste of time. THE AMOUNT AND BUFFS ON ENEMIES IS INSANE my Friend! Havoc is Overbloated with Enemy Bodies to Oblivion and back. Enemies/ Game Balance/ Enemy Amount/ Enemy HP needs to be adressed first before one should consider nerfing ANY Nade, or anything at that. Dont get me wrong this is no offense, maybe you do, maybe you dont, i dont see any problem with it. Its my Opinion im just sharing another perspective to you.

I would like to see a System similar to V2. Less Armored enemies but more HP. in V2 this was the most Fun actually “Duelling” a Chaos Warrior. Yes you had Break Points, you could 3 shot them with certain Weapons and perfect Build (dmg vs. X) but still.

We need a System with Battlepoints like on Table Top. The Gamemaster can only have so much Elite/ Special Units that Cost a certain Amount of Points. His Role then is to decide if he wants them sprinkled over the whole Mission or less but more dense encounters. Hordes with Zombies shouldnt count. You could even consider that the Amount of Points can be refreshed after doing damage or killing Players, so there is always some Reinforcement for the Gamemaster. ALso you need to consider Modifiers of Special Packs and Level Modifiers. As long aws something like that is not in the Game and its just a Spam of everything i wouldnt consider any Nerfs

[Vror]

@Roibr

Funny, cause Bleed Nade was the most popular for all the Havoc Players Endgame players with Vet, for forever. Bigger AoE, Bleed which was crazy with crits etc. Now you say Kraks are OP?

Yes because Kraks needed 3 tax nodes to be useful then because of the pre rework tree. Right now you’re only required to spend 1 point (the one that increases dmg)

Is this really such a hard thing to understand?

@Roibr

First Line you say, that other Classes have more Powerful Nades, yet you make a post about Kraks?! Sry i dont get it…

The fact that Vet can throw +40 per Havoc game is the issue or +25 in Auric

@Roibr

Veteran does not only refresh Nades for himself, but for the whole Team. I dont see any problem with that. What exactly is so disturbing to you coming from Kraks with a very very small AoE. They are Single Target Nades. Enemies need to hug each other to get more than one kill with it.

When the towering presence of Crushers/Monstrosities is Made redundant since megadamage bombs that stagger, while they’re also extremely easy to replenish

@Roibr

Look at it that way. Some Players wanna LARP, if youre Krieg or Armageddon, you need Nades or want Nade Builds since they are Bread and Butter for Trench Warfare. This is how i run both of these Characters with some variation. Why do you wanna take away fun for others. You dont need to enjoy it, but its not Game breaking or anything in any way shape or form.

Wouldn’t nerfing the nade generation talents for kraks as well as reverting the base krak amount buff from 2 to 3 would solve that without nerfing the power each individual nade has?

@Roibr

Since when is Kraks ruining Game Balance? Players always find something new to stomp into the Ground even if it didnt deserve it.

Since they don’t need 3 tax points anymore, they buffed the amount from 2 to 3 AND Vet was allowed to generate more than 40 in a game

@Roibr

Nades a are a part, for some a big part of a Build i agree, but bad game balancing i disagree. How many Guns are actually viable for Vet?! maybe 30% of the ranged Weapons? Bolter, Las, Plasma. The rest is still meh since Launch even after rework, after rework of Ranged Weapons specifically Stubbers.

Combat Shotgun Agrapinaa
Infantry Autogun Vraks
Zarona Revolver
Helbore Lasgun (MK4)
Recon Lasgun

You not wanting to try them does not mean they’re bad

@Roibr

Kraks like the Name suggest, is to “crack” Armor. High Single Target Armor Penetration damage.

Which would be okay if Vet couldn’t generate +40 or even +50 in a game

[Rvl]

@Roibr

Funny, cause Bleed Nade was the most popular for all the Havoc Players Endgame players with Vet, for forever. Bigger AoE, Bleed which was crazy with crits etc. Now you say Kraks are OP?

This to me is the most egrigious thing. When I watched some of the content creators, most of them ONLY ever used frags in the past. I remember back in Havoc Season 2, every single Vet I’ve met in my Havoc lobbies only used one build-- DS4, Plasma, Frags, VOC.

I started prioritizing kraks during season 2 of Havoc way more than frag, because most people were really bad at fighting multiple bosses, especially if they spawn at once, and I often finished my games with 300-400k boss damage on Vet with Bolter and Kraks, or Recon and Kraks, or Power Sword + Kraks.

Despite brainburst dealing more damage than even flame staff to bosses, most Psykers never switch to brainburst for the boss. Ogryns mostly block against the bosses if they taunt. Zealots were underpowered and required insane personal player skill to solo bosses.

So more often that not, it was solely up to me to delete or at least deal the majority of damage to every non-Captain boss.

[Vror]

Tanner had such an horrendous take during season 2 that he kept suggesting that Frags were the best nade, and somehow now people say that “ohhh everyone said Frags were better”

Even he corrected himself later and said Kraks were better since the tree rework and krak buff

[NewNoise10]

@Vror

The fact that Vet can throw +40 per Havoc game is the issue or +25 in Auric

If they’re throwing one every minute, sure. Usually Veterans are saving them for monstrosities or elites. If we’re talking Havoc 40+, there’s usually a lot more than just 40 crushers or elites in any given run, and there’s always the chance for the Rot Armour modifier, which means they’ll survive a krak without the extra damage node.

I can extend an olive branch to you by saying I can see why you view that as a problem, but to extend an olive branch to us, you have to admit that crushers are probably one of the most hated enemies to go against, so kraks solve the carapace problem, which is only made worse with the Rot Armour modifier.

I mean, how many people actually like fighting a bullet sponge?

[Vror]

I don’t need to do any revelation since I’ve always said Crushers need to be readjusted to not rely on instakillers to take them out, you can confirm this through my post history

My most common suggestion is simply increasing the amount of weakspot they take by like x1.5 or x2, this way we make Crushers more like Chaos Warriors

And for Rotten Armour in specific, I think they just need to increase the HP of rotten enemies by 25-35%, give them high resistance to DoT effects (like 50-75%), but replace their flak and Carapace armour with Infested (and ofc keep their resistance scaling with current hp thing as well)