# Kerillian Longbow vs Kruber Longbow, and Arcane Bodkin **URL:** \ **Category:** Gameplay Feedback\ **Created:** [March 15, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399 "2018-03-15T21:36:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fletninger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Fletninger](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fletninger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/1 "2018-03-15T21:36:02Z")
I’m confused, as today I found out that the Kruber Longbow apparently deals damage through Chaos Warrior armour… yet the elven longbow doesn’t. It barely deals damage in the head in fact. I understand they have to be different, and they already are in another aspect. On legend, Kerillian’s longbow has to hit a stormvermin in the chest twice, and Kruber can hit them in one shot. That’s totally fine, they have to be different, and he has less mobility while shooting, so having each shot count for more makes perfect sense. But why are his arrows more armour piercing than Kerillian’s? I feel like chaos warriors should be the wall you hit with your bow. That’s when you go for a gun instead, or melee. Add to that, arcane bodkin is a type of arrow that is pretty much the most commonly used by the wood elves. It penetrates armour with ease… yet her arrows do not, and if they want to keep it as a talent option… then they don’t help with that either. They just let you deal more headshot damage, even though it should let you go through armour. ---
**Author:** ![BaconAndEggs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@BaconAndEggs](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/BaconAndEggs)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/2 "2018-03-15T21:47:52Z")
Kruber’s bow has more tension in the string, it just looks easy for him to use because of his sick biceps. So when he fires his bow there’s more force in the arrows. Science. ---
**Author:** ![Fletninger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Fletninger](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fletninger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/3 "2018-03-15T21:49:26Z")
It’s still a regular arrow. And it’s still chaos warrior armour. Kruber arrow vs magic arrow meant to penetrate armour. I think magic arrow should be able to do what a kruber arrow does. ---
**Author:** ![BaconAndEggs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@BaconAndEggs](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/BaconAndEggs)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/4 "2018-03-15T21:52:14Z")
The rat’s used their magic to empower the chaos warrior armor against magical objects. I get what you’re actually asking but it’s more of a storytelling question. Mechanically the answer is “because Kerillian has enough nice things already.” ---
**Author:** ![davoodoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b19c9b/32.png) [@davoodoo](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/davoodoo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/5 "2018-03-15T22:06:10Z")
Neither does penetrate chest armor of chaos warrior, both penetrate head. ---
**Author:** ![AgainPyromancer](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/againpyromancer/32/18958_2.png) [@AgainPyromancer](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/AgainPyromancer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/6 "2018-03-15T22:08:25Z")
From a game design perspective, the Kruber Longbow is tied to his Huntsman class, whereas the Kerillian Longbow is accessible to all her classes. In other words, Krubs pays a substantial opportunity cost for playing “Sniper Huntsman”. The tradeoff is that he gets a unique badass smasher of a bow. ---
**Author:** ![davoodoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b19c9b/32.png) [@davoodoo](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/davoodoo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/7 "2018-03-15T22:12:14Z")
Also funnily enough waywatchers didnt have armor piercing in tt because their arrows could penetrate armor, but because they were such a good shots that they hit gaps in the armor. ---
**Author:** ![Fletninger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Fletninger](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fletninger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/8 "2018-03-15T22:13:55Z")
No it does penetrate chest armour. My friend tested it today. Also arcane bodkin’s rules in the tabletop is literally to penetrate armour. Not hit gaps in the armour. At this point I am really more asking for a change in the talent than anything else, since headshot damage makes no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fletninger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Fletninger](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fletninger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/9 "2018-03-15T22:15:21Z")
I think it should deal more damage than Kerillian’s bow. For sure. I just don’t understand why arcane bodkin couldn’t do the same at this point, or that neither of them could go through chaos warriors. That should be the barrier of the bow, at which point you swap to handgun. ---
**Author:** ![davoodoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b19c9b/32.png) [@davoodoo](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/davoodoo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/10 "2018-03-15T22:30:25Z")
Well then they changed it today. Waywatchers use no special ammo. ---
**Author:** ![Fletninger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Fletninger](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fletninger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/11 "2018-03-15T22:33:32Z")
They do. At least they used to have armour penetration, but regardless it is a talent. And if waystalkers couldn’t use special arrows, then why does Kerillian have trueflight and hagbane? Look it up before you make up stuff. Regardless, this is just an idea and a question as to why arcane bodkins isn’t armour piercing like Kruber’s bow seems to be. ---
**Author:** ![davoodoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b19c9b/32.png) [@davoodoo](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/davoodoo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/12 "2018-03-15T22:41:18Z")
They dont. You pulled it straight out of your ass. They either get armor piercing or double shot. Glade lord, glade guard and deepwood scouts use enchanted arrows. Waywatchers are just amazing archers. > **[Warhammer Wood Elves: 8th Edition Review](http://hoodlinghole.blogspot.com/2014/05/warhammer-wood-elves-8th-edition-review.html)** > > I never used to make a point of reviewing new army books, however I did it for the new Dwarf book and that post is now one of the most-re... “Finally we have Waywatchers. They now cost 20 points and can choose from 2 firing modes. They can rapid fire 2 shots each, or they can go for power, in which case their shots ignore armour saves. This could make them a significant inclusion in many Wood Elf armies, although the question then becomes whether you could get the job done with cheaper Glade Guard or Scouts using Arcane Bodkins (you save 2 or 3 points per model, but lose a BS and only apply a -3 save modifier).” ---
**Author:** ![Fletninger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Fletninger](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fletninger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/13 "2018-03-15T22:42:12Z")
Then why does she have hagbane and arcane bodkin (that doesn’t work like arcane bodkin) as options? Clearly we are a bit beyond the barriers here aren’t we. And you still just said they have armour piercing. ---
**Author:** ![poplavok418](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4da419/32.png) [@poplavok418](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/poplavok418)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/14 "2018-03-15T22:43:19Z")
Kruber’s bow only penetrates armour if you aim for almost 3 seconds. And it is a pain to aim. Also, for whatever reason, it takes 2 seconds between shots or before you can swap for meele weapon after shooting. So it is pretty clunky, it makes sence to hawe some tradeoff. ---
**Author:** ![davoodoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b19c9b/32.png) [@davoodoo](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/davoodoo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/15 "2018-03-15T22:46:10Z")
Does she have arcane bodkin? i see asrai longbow, i dont see enchanted arrow there. Also yeah, vermintide, its not exactly lore friendly. Wood elf wouldnt become shade or handmaiden as these are not wood elf units and lets even assume that she could, they wouldnt use asrai weapons. Why not use shadowdancer and eternal guard instead? ---
**Author:** ![Fletninger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Fletninger](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fletninger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/16 "2018-03-15T22:49:09Z")
Like I’ve literally been saying from the start. It’s a talent. Arcane Bodkin. It’s right there. It gives you headshot damage. Not armour penetration damage. It doesn’t do anything at all to help against armour. I also agree with your last sentiment however. Shadowdancer and Eternal Guard or something along those lines, would have been better, but I guess they wanted to appease people asking for high elf heroes / dark elf heroes. ---
**Author:** ![davoodoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b19c9b/32.png) [@davoodoo](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/davoodoo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/17 "2018-03-15T22:50:36Z")
Like i said, vermintide is not lore friendly. Especially since that talent works with hagbane too 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Fletninger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Fletninger](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fletninger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/18 "2018-03-15T22:59:52Z")
According to my Kruber friend, you don’t have to charge for that long. Just enough to draw the arrow in fact, which isn’t much longer than Kerillian’s, but he has really limited mobility and accuracy as you said, so I think it’s -good- that it deals more damage. At this point I don’t think there is anything wrong his bow doing it, and my whole thing is really more that it doesn’t make sense that arcane bodkin doesn’t let Kerillian do even something a little similar. After all that is the point of Arcane Bodkin. I wish it was a seperate bow… ---
**Author:** ![Fletninger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Fletninger](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Fletninger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/19 "2018-03-15T23:01:13Z")
Yet arcane bodkin doesn’t work like it should, armour piercing doesn’t mean headshot damage, and hagbane works exactly like it should doesn’t it. I’d prefer it as a bow, would make more sense, but at least they could do something here. ---
**Author:** ![EmpIzza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@EmpIzza](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/EmpIzza)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399/20 "2018-03-15T23:10:46Z")
> [@Fletninger](#): > > Kruber Longbow apparently deals damage through Chaos Warrior armour… yet the elven longbow doesn’t > [@Fletninger](#): > > On legend, Kerillian’s longbow has to hit a stormvermin in the chest twice, and Kruber can hit them in one shot. You have missed one vital point, you are comparing elven zoom vs kruber zoom “heavy”. In the earlier beta(s) we tested this a bit, and the conclusions are as follows (note that elven longbow has 2 modes, light attack and zoomed attack, while Kruber’s have 3 modes, light attack, zoomed attack and zoomed “heavy” attack (for lack of better word, feels like a heavy attack)): | Toon | Attack | body | “finesse” | | --- | --- | --- | --- | | Kerry | light | 1.00 | 1.60 | | | zoomed | 1.25 | 3.90 | | Kruber | light | 1.00 | 1.60 | | | zoomed | 1.25 | 2.50 | | | heavy | 1.90 | 3.50 | In the table 1 is the “basedmg”, and all numbers are relative to that. What the table says is that Kruber can just hold down rmb for a while longer and do alot more damage. I do not know if the numbers are the same now in release. [Next page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/kerillian-longbow-vs-kruber-longbow-and-arcane-bodkin/19399.md?page=2)