Is it normal to leave teammates to die?

[IshanDeston]

@Ol_Jakal

the fact you see the guy in the last room killing enemies as wasting time and not currently too swamped to get away tells me you’re rushing.

Sorry, but that isn’t rushing. That is simply me realizing that if i am going to help them, they won’t stop and have even fewer reasons to stop trying to murder every groaner and poxwalker in the game.

And when i am seeing someone stuck like that then i consider it a teachable moment.

If they are having fun, who am i to step in and spoil it… and if not they have the opportunity to analyze what they could have done better, to handle that situation.

At least that is how I do it. For the longest time i couldn’t handle Ragers in Melee. I would just block and dodge back, hoping for my Team to safe me. But the nature of a Damnation game is that maybe there is no Team to safe you. Slowly but surely, after many times kissing the dirt, i have learned how to fight Ragers in Melee. One or two don’t even cause a sweat. It starts to get interesting with 5+, simply by not blaming my team for not coming to help me and instead doing trial and error of what i could do different and what tools i have at my disposal… and if maybe i need different tools.

If you are stuck in a Horde, i expect you to have learned how to leave it if you want to… and if you haven’t learned, then 3 people being able to chill, while you are learning it, is probably the safest environment in which you can experiment with which moves and equipment choices you can make to avoid this situation in the future.

If i go in there and help you… 9 out of 10 times, you/they won’t move. I experience this so often. I see someone getting stuck, i go help them… and once the immediate danger is clear, i turn to leave, only to realize they got stuck right back in… to fight the next pack of horde, which they could have easily run away from.

In 3 out of 10 situations, they will extract themselves from the horde, now that i am helping, continue to run away, realize i am staying to make sure they can get away, and then deciding to come help me… and now they are stuck back in.

The number of times they actually will get a move on, so i can extract myself and run after them… is so small, that just standing there waiting and turning it into a teachable moment is just not worth the annoyance with random PUG guy not extracting after you came and fetched them.

[Mezmorki]

@IshanDeston

The number of times they actually will get a move on,

I think Vermintide taught a lot about how to move during continuous combats. There are various events with endless hordes and you have to move a long way from A to B and know how to push and make space while dodging. Fighting enemies but focusing on movement.

Darktide has many of the same situations I feel but somehow people are getting the memo in what to do.

[Harlequin]

@Mezmorki

Darktide has many of the same situations I feel but somehow people are getting the memo in what to do.

Probably because the ranged aspect of darktide can remove the need to learn some/all those lessons even at damnation if you’ve got decent teammates more often than not.

If we got a mission or two where plot armor removed the ability to used ranged and made you melee for a while, I’d guess it would sink in a little easier.

If fatshark still insist on narrative things, they could just make the exfil part of a mission be some sort of nurgle plague miasma where all you can do is run, dodge, and block.
Make a melee gauntlet you have to get through, all speed/dodge numbers/block efficiency is normalized in the group so it’s an even playing field no matter the class or setup.

Now get to the exfil point.

I think people would catch on a lot faster and maybe watch what other people do to avoid everything from chip damage to overheads.

[Ralendil]

@Harlequin

Make a melee gauntlet you have to get through, all speed/dodge numbers/block efficiency is normalized in the group so it’s an even playing field no matter the class or setup.

Hab Dreyko when I first played it.
I am totally for, at least on one (more) mission, of something like that… a run to save your life.
But they need to make it so if you slow down… you inevitably die surrounded by a horde tide. So something worse than what we have in Hab Dreyko

[My_Respect]

That’s the thing, man, this is not a team game. There are no team interactions, and the synergy between characters does not work properly. Each character can be tailored to all types of enemies, and therefore team interactions are not needed in principle.

[Index]

@IshanDeston

and then deciding to come help me

hence my many a call in discord not to run back again lest he wanna play the accordion of doom.

the monkey see/do part sadly is so lopsided in favor of the wrong lesson from the help coming, i’d need a third hand for face palming proper.

like the dude in over his head gets the notion he’d be of any help in the pickle i just gotten him out of.

so in order of not animating a second lemming joining the rear cluster, i advice to keep the momentum forward between our duo.

[Nukem]

@Nish

Many builds require 0 help from teammates to fight any kind of threat so keeping your teammates alive isn’t a priority.

If this is the general consensus then FS has truly failed seeing as this is a co-op game

[Nish]

It was just confirmed in the newest blog post that the design intent is for players to be able to clutch any situations. So it isn’t just consensus it’s design intent.

@FatsharkStrawHat

While this might seem against the idea of co-op, we found through playtests that the ability to clutch is crucial for individual skill expression, and skill expression is important in a multiplayer game. Not allowing a single player to survive alone would also result in a more toxic gameplay loop where players would give up as soon as other players were downed. It also simply feels rewarding to save the day and revive fallen team members.

[Ashrad]

I think GTFO would fit you well if you just want the mission to fail as soon as your team fall apart, oh wait even that game is solo-able if you’re skilled enough…

Maybe go play It Take Two or A Way Out I guess.

[Nukem]

Yeah well maybe it’s just me but your wording

@Nish

keeping your teammates alive isn’t a priority.

doesn’t really spur inspiration to play a co-op horde game is all I’m saying. While there definitely are times to help and times to press on, succeeding together is one of the features that give these games their identity, and I’m not sure your interpretation is FS intention.

If it’s all about doing it yourself where other players by extension become more of a distraction than a resource I might as well go play something (prob more popular) where co-op’s not even a feature.

Edit:

@Ashrad

Maybe go play It Take Two or A Way Out I guess.

Wow if this attitude is what the new direction brings out of the already crumbling player base they definitely failed lol.

[Nish]

@Nukem

If it’s all about doing it yourself where other players by extension become more of a distraction than a resource I might as well go play something (prob more popular) where co-op’s not even a feature.

IDK what’s going on lower difficulties, but on auric it’s mainly people searching for their own glory. There isn’t really anything where you would need team reliance outside event minigames. There are some players that play a more supportive role by choice, but that’s largely a minority.

I guess if you have friends to play with it’s always a more team orientated gameplay, but puging is just 4 solo players and that’s it.

Based on player behavior and reading many posts, having bad teammates is usually seen as a welcome extra difficulty, while having skilled teammates is more like competition.

As for the letting people die thing it’s more adventurous to just keep your self alive than go for a revive in most situations. Having 1 or even 2 people down isn’t a big hindrance and rescue points aren’t usually far away. Even clutching solo is something a large number of builds can do in a hands of your average long time player.

[Ashrad]

@Nukem

Wow if this attitude is what the new direction brings out of the already crumbling player base they definitely failed lol.

I’m just pointing out a game that’s unplayable without teamate, idk what your problem tbh.

Also new direction? It has always been that way since Left4Dead, Vermintide or Killing Floor. Idk what make you expect thing to be different here.

[Nukem]

@Nish

IDK what’s going on lower difficulties

Nice elitist attempt there dude Since I only play Auric Dam with randoms since at least a year back I wouldn’t know either. And while a lot of you guys in this thread seem to think that your mindset is the only one to have on highest difficulty, imo the absolute best games come from a tight team supporting each other by looking out for each other and excelling in their role and loadout. What makes having an underleveled level 40-something getting obliterated/carrying a green duo/trio to their first Auric victory fun is by showing them how the game is supposed to be played imo, not by working for being the focus of their deathcam.

But if that’s why you play this, what hinders you from just getting the true solo mod though? Genuinely asking.

[Nish]

@Nukem

imo the absolute best games come from a tight team supporting each other by looking out for each other and excelling in their role and loadout.

I don’t like the current situation either, and would like a more team orientated balance, but that’s just not the case.

As I said there are people who play a more supportive or team orientated playstyle, but they are largely in the minority. It’s also pretty hard to play that way when in every single game there is at least 1 person who just runs around the place (regardless of the class)… If you are lucky. If not all 3 of your teammates will do that.

You can babysit bad players for example, but that’s always to your detriment. There is nothing to gain apart from the supposed pride that you can keep him alive.

[Gunsang]

Darktide Posters: “Listen up, buttercup, this ain’t no picnic - you are playing in my house now. If you fall behind, I will leave you to die. If you go ahead, I will leave you to die. If you can’t solo 6 crushers, 10 ragers, 6 trappers, and a horde, I will leave you to die. If you don’t do exactly what I think you should do at any given time, not only will I leave you to die, I will spam “git gud noob” in the chat while doing so. I am not here to hold your hand. I am not here to be your teacher, your guide, or your mommy. I am not here to make friends or have fun, and in fact you are lucky I am here at all. I am here to play Darktide, and by god you had best live up to my expectations or we are gonna have a serious problem here, I kid you not.”

Also Darktide Posters: “Goodness me, and heavens to Betsey! Why do other players keep leaving my game? And often without the good manners to offer an apology! ‘Tis a most perplexing conundrum, and I am somewhat saddened by the distressing lack of good sportsmanship heretoforth demonstrated. The only plausible explanation which can come to mind - painful though it may be to contemplate such unkind thoughts - is that they simply lack the inherent nobility which motivates those most esteemed good players (such, I most humbly submit, as myself) to proceed with fellowship, courage, and fortitude in the face of setbacks. Tsk tsk, and – dare I say? – fie on them.”

While FS do get some deserved criticism, I do sometimes picture some poor devs reading through all this saying to themselves (head in hands): “What is it you people want from us?!”

More seriously, different people have different expectations - this leads to a bit of a problem when there is no real way to manage this in game, and so people will end up frustrated - particularly due to the lack of fine granularity control within and between difficulties. Fortunately, most people in game seem pretty reasonable (I’ve only had one “in chat” toxic player, and about a dozen or so genuinely bad experiences over my 500+ hours - which is pretty good for any game involving other people, in my experience!).

While I won’t try to save people if it is likely to lead to bad repurcussions, I certainly will try if I think I can (and tbh most classes have ways to make it favourable - particularly should other teammates consider it too). But then I am one of those oddballs who prefers playing in a more co-operative style - it is purely a personal perspective, but I’d rather go down with 3 other good sports laughing and wincing together as comrades in misfortune than cross the finish line with a frustrated elite-level player who offers nothing but chilly silence or recriminations. Again, that’s purely me, and I know other people approach it differently (and there’s nothing wrong with that either!).

If you’re having a lot of issues, maybe you could try seeing if you have better luck by changing something up (different time zone, different difficulty , etc.)? Or (I hesitate to suggest this as I try to avoid human interaction) maybe try to sign up with some good people (maybe through discord and such)?

Oh, and just a thought - I generally pop a cheery greeting in chat while loading in. For some reason, it seems that (assuming common language) 9/10 times if I get positive replies it will be a pretty good group. Not a perfect metric, but if you want to give it a try it might help? Just a thought

[Nukem]

@Ashrad

I’m just pointing out a game that’s unplayable without teamate, idk what your problem tbh.

Cmon man you know it yourself you didn’t lol. Read your post again and tell me that’s not elitist gatekeeping 101.

@Ashrad

Also new direction? It has always been that way since Left4Dead, Vermintide or Killing Floor. Idk what make you expect thing to be different here.

Uh yeah as in the one explained in the post from earlier today that Nish quoted a post or 2 above:

@FatsharkStrawHat

While this might seem against the idea of co-op, we found through playtests that the ability to clutch is crucial for individual skill expression, and skill expression is important in a multiplayer game. Not allowing a single player to survive alone would also result in a more toxic gameplay loop where players would give up as soon as other players were downed. It also simply feels rewarding to save the day and revive fallen team members.

I get your player type though.

[Nukem]

@Nish

It’s also pretty hard to play that way when in every single game there is at least 1 person who just runs around the place (regardless of the class)… If you are lucky. If not all 3 of your teammates will do that.

We like this game for different reasons and that’s ok, but if the rest of the team is sticking together while you’re running ahead looking for competition that part kinda goes against the rhetoric that “this is just how things work in Aurics” and kinda builds on the sentiment that co-op is supposed to be a strong factor to why ppl play this game is all I’m saying. If FS are looking to end that in the future then that’s how it is though.

[RTO]

If it means you’ll die after res then don’t. Unless, the person you’re resing is a game changing player, then res.

[Nish]

Are you intentionally misreading what I’m saying? It’s not 3 people sticking to gather, it’s 3 people running all over the place, preferably (by them) alone.

@Nish

[…] at least 1 person who just runs around the place […] If not all 3 of your teammates will do that.

[Nukem]

That’s my bad and I should’ve read it more throughly. Don’t know what servers you’re on but it sounds like we’ve been playing different games though ngl.

I’m used to seeing people turning around to shoot enemies sneaking up on a team mate, to rushing to cover the guy reviving the downed one or the other way around, tagging an enemy/group and seeing the majority of the team taking it down together 0.5s later etc and it’s what made me stick to Aurics for this long (along with the additional challenge obviously). And that’s solely pugs.
There’s often an odd bird either dying in the 2nd fight or by himself 5 rooms ahead of/behind the team and general player quality in Aurics is indeed dropping currently, but if I shared your experience of Aurics I’d prob stop playing this game 700 hours ago.