The nerf to rampage was negligible crate scum got a huge buff too
buff for short CD stim but nerf for long CD stim
and still doesn’t solve the core problem: box scum can’t clean horde effectively (due to the needle pistol bug). The crate trap is unstable.
Explosive box is incredibly dumb. Deliberately spending talent points and giving up most of effectiveness of stims, all just to drop an average ogryn rumbler grenade (or arbite exterminator shotgun fire / a couple of swings by power or relic sword / chordclaw swing / …) with a faulty fuse at your FEET about every ten seconds—one that takes freaking FIVE seconds to detonate. Meanwhile, the enemies have long since scattered and run off.
Can you duo it psyker? Psyker is the strongest class I hear, and can stack more DR than everyone but ogryn. Just wondering how popular it is among solo and duo players for H40 games. You can just clear the field everytime.
Right?
Man, if DiaoYo hadn’t started inferno-psyker trolling and you hadn’t joined in, we might have witnessed Vror’s Hive Scum Duo run. But now it’s obvious that whatever he uploads, you’ll find something wrong with it and move the goalposts to a deliberately unachievable level. In my opinion, it is glaringly obvious that the inferno psyker is most viable in a full squad, or at least a team of three. In a duo? Of course not. And a duo against this particular boss is hardly possible at all, because he is a massive, bullet-sponge bastard who can only be damaged in rare, short intervals. And inferno psykers have never been known for high damage against void-shielded boss types
If you break down the various Hive Scum builds into subcategories, where would you rank Rampage, Desperado, and Stim Supply respectively in this ranking?
Should not hype up the entire Hive Scum class just because of one powerful Rampage.
“Now, where’s the dodge button?!”
While possible, and while Psyker is the strongest class, the class has diminishing rewards when stacked
Since their DoT (Main strength) is still limited to the same amount of stacks
To get full potential of the class it should be 1 Psyker + another class if we’re talking in terms of duo
Rampage below Psyker
Desperado below Ogryn, above Vet
Supply probably at Zealot level or right below Zealot
May I ask what significant advantages let Desperado surpass Vet, Zealot, Skitarii, and Arbites?
And what makes Stim Supply rank higher than Skitarii and Arbites? Compared with the Aquila Arbite, which also has team-support capabilities, I don’t see what advantages box Scum has—other than that Needle Pistol.
From what I’ve seen, Hive Scum either lets Rampage carry the entire build, or lets the Needle Pistol carry the entire build. These two things are what HS relies on. Search YouTube for Havoc videos, and at least nine out of ten use at least one of the two. To put it mildly, not using these two strong points of HS will cause the vast majority of players to lose interest in playing with the class. To put it bluntly, without these two fig leaves, HS’s strength sucks—barely playable.
Yeah fine with me. I just wonder if there are people out there who have managed to duo H40 Spillway yet with one player being a psyker. Maybe even solo? Not saying there are no people who can do that. I’m sure there are people who can solo H40 spillway as psyker. But I’m completely sure it’s harder to do than basically any other class.
I am just wondering about the success-rate of soloplayers playing psyker, or duo-teams with a psyker, compared to other classes.
To be perfectly open and up front here. I believe that the claim that psyker is the “strongest class” is almost entirely bullshirt if meant in other other way than the damage done capacity, but completely fails to take into account the effect of being near and together with other team mates. And that an isolated psyker is substantially more f0rked and likely to fold that basically any other class. The psykers real and only strenght is dealing damage, but they need, NEED protection to be able to do that reliably for a similar level of skill investment compared to other classes.
Psyker does indeed mostly rely on system mechanics to defend himself, which get a lot weaker when all the enemies are only focusing on you, but Psyker is actually the most resistant class to chip damage IMO. Their toughness regen is so insane the only things that can really harm them are overheads and barrels. Previously Poxbursters and Snipers before Fatshark decided to compensate nerfing gold toughness for some reason.
Most of the reason I run a FGS, IAG, and Scrier’s Gaze as a psyker is so I’m not so vulnerable at close range and in fact actually prefer it.
Probably yes but the main thing here is that it has been less than a week since release, and I’d assume not all people are constantly trying to duo it pff
Obviously, It will be hard since this map has barely any space to move around and loop, unironically enough the boss fight should be the easiest part of the map lol
Psyker is not really a good solo class unless scriers gaze but even then ehhh, iffy
It’s a really good class when they have a frontliner with them
I mean yeah, but the important thing here is that we’re measuring based on a full team / having teammates
Damage is not everything, but it’s not like the psyker needs to handle all the pressure by themselves to be the best class
Because if we measured how good a class is based on true solo potential then zealot and scum would be the 2 best classes, yet we all know Ogryn with PBB is insanely busted and needs an immediate nerf even if he isn’t a good solo class
Best anti ranged in the game, excellent special clear, good anti elite, excellent horde clear, can do all of this very safely
To be fair this is mostly carried by the Needle pistol
Needle pistol is so insane you can have full tox support build, and still chunk down bosses at an insanely fast rate (as well as crushers and really anything that has LoS), while megabuffing your team
The issue with Arbites is that they’re a selfish frontliner, and while that doesn’t mean it’s a Bad class, it does mean that the requirement for selfishness is kinda low
But it’s important to me to clarify that just because Arbites is 7th and Zealot is 5th, that doesn’t mean the difference between these 2 is huge, Zealot is just slightly better than Arbites and Skitarii for example
Skitarii on the other hand is a very generalist class that can only maybe excell at 1 thing depending on what they choose, either boss dmg or having blue taunt. It’s kind of a frail class in high pressure situations that does slightly struggle to make comebacks, but it’s very smooth when the team is doing good
And you’re essentially correct
But these apply to every class, every class has 1-2 builds that leave everything else in the dust in terms of results either support or full damage
Ogryn? PBB Rumbler or Taunt Shield
Veteran? PS/DS + Plasma (at least vet gets to choose ability freely with barely any difference yay)
Zealot? Relic Blade Shroudfield or DS Book
Psyker? Inferno + Shriek
Skitarii? Combat Blade/Transonic Blades + Claw
Arbites? Arb Shock Maul / Arb Shield + Charge
At least I can for sure Say that non meta Psyker builds are like 85% as good as the meta builds, other classes however if they deviate they’ll be at like 60% efficiency of the meta counterpart
But this is something that happens with every class if we’re talking about maximizing
What bothers me is that Rampage and the Needle Pistol are not only clearly stronger than the other options in Hive Scum’s arsenal, but also not very fun. Rampage is designed as a skill that encourages you to mash left click; doing so not only significantly extends its duration but also lets you benefit more from the attack-speed buff, since no one can perfectly time heavy attacks right at the attack-speed cap. So although there are some differences depending on the weapon—for example, with shivs I’ll use more heavy attacks to stab heads—when playing Rampage, the experience with most weapons isn’t very different. Chop chop chop, chop chop chop, that’s it. There’s no differentiated experience, and it’s very harmful to the ligaments and joints of your hand. As for the Needle Pistol—absolutely one of the most boring weapons in the game. I’m actually a huge DoT enthusiast; I love burn, toxin, bleed, and effects like that. I used to be obsessed with the Needle Pistol, but after spending more time with it you realize it leaves nothing but endless emptiness. No matter what enemy it is, as long as you move the mouse over, you don’t need precise aim at all; just click left a few times blindly, and the pistol silently trembles a little, firing needles almost invisible to the eye, hitting enemies with a sound your ears can’t hear, making them die pathetically. The whole process requires no skill, no headshots (there’s a benefit but it’s tiny), no recoil control, no keeping your crosshair locked on the enemy (like with plasma), and there’s no gunshot, no recoil, no hit feedback, nothing that violates the weapon’s lore, and no fun. Plain boiled water has a more complex taste than the Needle Pistol.
So, sigh, after I got tired of Rampage’s wanton slashing, Hive Scum really doesn’t have any strong and fun builds left. This is very different from the situation with other classes. First, no other weapon is more boring than the Needle Pistol; even the Inferno Force Staff still gives the player the freedom to choose how long to charge. Second, for other classes, there are quite a few builds that aren’t top-tier but are close behind. For example, Ogryn’s taunt + shield is very strong, but if Ogryn wants to play melee there are many choices. Taunt combined with 3b Bully Club (mash left click), Mk6 Cleaver (weave light attacks and punches), Cruncher (heavy attack sweeps, special attack for single-target kills), Karsolas Pickaxe (leans toward heavy attacks), Borovian Pickaxe (use block cancel to repeatedly do L1, use special attack and heavy attacks for single-target kills)—these weapons with very different playstyles all perform quite well. If you switch the skill to Charge, crowd control is a bit more unstable, but the experience is subtly different. These setups are all pretty strong. Some builds I’ve used couldn’t beat Havoc 40 and I’d feel the setup was a bit weak; with these weapons I feel the strength is guaranteed, and if I can’t handle enemies I have to blame myself. Ogryn also has the taunt + Power Maul + Gauntlet playstyle, killing armored enemies like cracking eggs, which is also very strong. The Gauntlet’s gameplay experience is also very unique, combining parabolic aiming, explosions, and a special attack punch—clumsy, yes, but fun.
Ogryn is just an example. I’m using him to illustrate that for most characters, the gameplay is more focused on weapons, with abilities as a bonus. Because there are many weapons, there are many playstyles. Rampage, however, still pushes light attack combos too much; that’s not good, the playstyle is too one-dimensional.
Moreover, I think Rampage’s strength is why Fatshark doesn’t dare give HS too good melee weapons. HS’s three exclusive melee weapons are definitely limited in base stats because of the huge boost Rampage can provide. Shivs are not good at clearing hordes, and that’s already the best weapon. The crowbar’s blunt mode has low damage, and its sharp mode sticks to enemies, making it inconvenient for Scum to use mobility. The bonesaw often gets stuck in enemy flesh and is very clumsy; toxin mode has low damage multipliers against flak & carapace, while brittle mode has low multipliers against maniac & unyielding. When holding the bonesaw against mixed enemy hordes, if you want to clear hordes first, you find that its cleave, stagger, and attack speed are all low. If you want to snipe elites first like a Force Greatsword Psyker, you find that compared to them you not only have shorter reach, but your moves also require repeatedly canceling to use the sticky H1, not as clean and crisp as the greatsword. Blessings can make up for some of the flaws, but if you patch the weaknesses you can’t keep enhancing the strengths—overall it’s super troublesome. FS definitely overestimates the bonesaw’s ability to clear hordes in toxin mode. They probably think that when the bonesaw sweeps across, it can apply toxin to a bunch of enemies, but in reality, with the bonesaw’s base cleave, it can neither apply toxin to many enemies nor achieve better results with low direct damage + toxin than with high direct damage. In many cases, using the bonesaw does reduce horde HP, but not to the point of direct kills, so these horde enemies stuck to your face, reduced to a sliver of health by the previous slash and toxin, are still alive and can eat the next slash. Therefore, the bonesaw’s toxin doesn’t actually break any kill thresholds at high difficulty. Yesterday I played a Box Scum using the bonesaw, and after finishing I immediately switched to Cruncher Ogryn to relax my brain. HS’s three weapons all have somewhat indescribable flaws, but Rampage can make up for them all. Still, without Rampage, these weapons should also be comfortable to use. FS nerfed Rampage in the new patch. I won’t hastily say nerfs are absolutely forbidden, but I hope FS considers the diverse relationships between skills, weapons, and playstyles. Even if they continue to nerf Rampage, that’s feasible, but it requires certain weapon buffs.
I thought of another thing to gripe about. Desperado HS’s no-ammo-consumption ability may also be overrated.
If ammo pickups in Havoc 40 were really so scarce that it took all four players pooling together to fill a single magazine, then HS’s ammo-independent trait would be extremely strong. However, in the current H40, ammo, while not plentiful, is enough to sustain one ammo consumer (provided he has the relevant ammo-regeneration abilities) and barely feed the remaining three.
So is Desperado’s no-ammo-consumption trait really that strong? Who gets to use the ammo saved? If Des HS is the only primarily ranged character on the team and the other three are melee, then the team doesn’t lack the ammo HS saves. If there’s another heavy ammo consumer on the team, at first glance he’d seem like he should be endlessly grateful to HS, but—first, as said earlier, as long as he’s taken the ammo skill and diligently searches for supplies, he won’t be too short on ammo himself. Second, this heavy ammo consumer’s role is very likely to overlap with HS’s.
Most guns in this game are not great at dealing with Carapace or Unyielding enemies, and most ammo expended is used to deal with specialists or Flak-armoured elites. And that’s exactly what Des HS is busy doing. If you kill them all, what am I supposed to kill? Either Des HS kills all the soft targets, leaving that teammate standing there staring blankly, eventually forced to waste excess ammo on extremely low-value things like hosing down a horde; or the teammate kills all the soft targets, leaving HS with nothing to do, completely dispensable; or the two each kill half, clearing out the enemies suited to them, and then find that guns aren’t much use against the remaining enemies, so they shrug and each pull out a support melee weapon and start swinging. The more useful Des HS is, the more useless the other ammo consumer is; the more useful the other ammo consumer is, the more useless HS is. Because the number of soft targets best suited to being shot is limited, and the two characters’ roles overlap, this very easily creates diminishing marginal utility, reducing the per-capita effectiveness of these shooters.
It’s true that some ranged weapons don’t conflict with Des HS’s role, such as the Ogryn’s Gauntlet. Leaving more ammo for the big guy lets him use grenade punches to punch enemies more often. But this kind of weapon makes up a very small proportion, and without deliberately adjusting team composition, there are relatively few situations where Des HS can leverage his ammo-free advantage. And with something like this, just bringing a Veteran would also give you enough ammo—so what’s so miraculous about Des HS’s no-ammo-consumption ability?
If we evaluate it not by H40 standards but by Auric or Maelstrom as the baseline, then the no-ammo-consumption trait is almost worthless. At these no-debuff difficulties, the team simply doesn’t lack ammo—unless all four of you refuse to melee and also dislike searching for supplies, as if you’re doing some kind of penance.