# Havok demotion system is BAD **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 10, 2025, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488 "2025-10-10T14:11:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mikesol91](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mikesol91/32/35791_2.png) [@mikesol91](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/mikesol91)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/1 "2025-10-10T14:11:53Z")
Let’s face it, Havok is a mode offering a huge advantage to the few players who are mostly in pre mades where everyone has their roles/ proper builds/ coordination. Also even with the greatest pre made group you have the occasional server desync (session aborted etc). So for a dude who can only play via random teams, without pre mades, facing both the server crap and the random duches who cannot carry their arses, the demotion system is heavy and punishing. Ascending the ladder of havoc missions all the way to 40 (one by one) through blood and sweat only to fail again and again on 37 - 39 and demoting back to 30 and then fighting to ascend to the top again, countless times is exhausting and unfun - the real definition of paranoia. Demotion system should get scraped. It’s pointless and sucks the fun out of it. A dude may spend a whole 45 mins per attempt only to face defeat and not only failing but descending even lower; to me it sounds like both a morale and time crusher. Clearance map should stay available till you beat it. Simple and tidy. I mean what is the point of demotion really? ---
**Author:** ![MadMartigan](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/madmartigan/32/85568_2.png) [@MadMartigan](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/MadMartigan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 2:45pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/2 "2025-10-10T14:45:07Z")
> [@mikesol91](#): > > I mean what is the point of demotion really? rEtEnTiOn!!!11 What other logical explanation is there? Sure as hell ain’t to add fun to the mode. But yeah, I’ve been very vocal on it as have many on the forum. The demotion needs to go. I don’t mind a bit of gating using, say penances, and the initial rank climb would be fine if demotion wasn’t a thing. Demotion has caused me to avoid havoc on many, many occasions when I actually wanted to play it. ---
**Author:** ![Molonious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Molonious](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Molonious)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/3 "2025-10-10T15:52:09Z")
> [@mikesol91](#): > > I mean what is the point of demotion really? Nobody knows, including Fatshark by all appearances. A decaying ladder in a 4 person coop PvE game is fundamentally an inappropriate mechanism for…just about anything. I suspect it’s something a senior dev or C-suite pulled from another game (probably something competitive/PvP) and hamfisted it into Darktide and either nobody at Fatshark has the Cajones to tell them it’s stupid, or they’re fully aware and are too invested to walk it back. Much like the RNG itemization and crafting was stupid from the outset but took two years to overcome the RNG fetish of senior leadership, I suspect the same thing applies here to Havoc ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Pirx](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/pirx/32/96156_2.png) [@Pirx](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Pirx)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/4 "2025-10-10T16:41:55Z")
> [@MadMartigan](#): > > rEtEnTiOn!!!11 until you drive them away. as with all other hamster wheel grind mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Latifa](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/latifa/32/71258_2.png) [@Latifa](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Latifa)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/5 "2025-10-10T17:10:55Z")
The demotion system is simply disgusting, but if there were no derangs every 3 months, it would be much better. ---
**Author:** ![kqgee](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/kqgee/32/28555_2.png) [@kqgee](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/kqgee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 5:30pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/6 "2025-10-10T17:30:43Z")
> [@mikesol91](#): > > I mean what is the point of demotion really? The have and have not system, Gate keeping skill and copium, awful game design. Rank in PVE lol ---
**Author:** ![MunKy](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/munky/32/72010_2.png) [@MunKy](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/MunKy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 5:57pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/7 "2025-10-10T17:57:35Z")
> Havok demotion system is BAD I couldnt agree more! ![HadesIknow](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/fatshark/original/3X/4/6/46567a6062f36221878d538501b4a2cbe33d8332.gif) (gif not aimed at you directly, just how it makes me feel) ---
**Author:** ![SymboJones](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/symbojones/32/80251_2.png) [@SymboJones](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SymboJones)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/8 "2025-10-10T18:05:18Z")
Ah, another day, another player rightfully calling out this ridiculous “retention” strategy. When will you learn FS? _well we know they won’t_ 🙃 ---
**Author:** ![Eviltreerat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecae2f/32.png) [@Eviltreerat](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Eviltreerat)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 6:30pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/9 "2025-10-10T18:30:49Z")
Anytime there is a ladder system with decay/ demotions in a PvE (and the majority of PvP) games it serves only one purpose; to create a “in” and “out” group. Thus dividing the players into opposing groups and making them easier to set against eachother instead of acting as a unified group over common issues. Psychological manipulation 101. A method loved by demagogues, dictators, and others seeking to control other people. Obesetuna is no different. Instead of admitting to their list of issues and devoting resources to address said issues as possible, they perfer to divide the players up and set them against each other. Then they wonder why the number of people playing the game is so small after only a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Warudo](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/warudo/32/102233_2.png) [@Warudo](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Warudo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/10 "2025-10-10T18:31:42Z")
![ogryn truth nuke](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/fatshark/original/3X/f/d/fd1d4cd3660184a08ce3a41e356269313697d02d.gif) i hate derank!!! ---
**Author:** ![anon63448941](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@anon63448941](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon63448941)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 6:58pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/11 "2025-10-10T18:58:31Z")
> [@mikesol91](#): > > I mean what is the point of demotion really? Challenge. Why are NFL players and other professional athletes celebrated around the world? It’s because it’s incredibly difficult to perform at their level. People innately desire the recognition of accomplishing that which others identify as challenging. I don’t do Havoc btw, so take what I say with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Downer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Downer](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Downer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 7:47pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/12 "2025-10-10T19:47:32Z")
> [@mikesol91](#): > > fail again and again on 37 - 39 and demoting back to 30 Exactly what happened to me, got to lvl 38, demoted back to lvl 30. Now lvl 35, only because i did two havoc 40 games, but i still need to 3 more games to return whay i lost and 2 more to reach 40 and i won’t get any additional levels for doing 40. And i can’t really blame myself or teams for all of these failures, only for some, because sometimes it’s just bullsh\*t, disconnects, game crashing instantly for all with no error, of course with loss of a try, 4 bosses at the start in a corner or bunch of rotten armor where out of 10 crushers and 15 maulers, at least 6 of each decided to stim blue, so they become unstoppable. Even when it’s not a loss, i see sometimes some stuff, like DH near med station, reaper standing somewhere not even snipers stand, basically almost out of bounds, but of course he can shoot us, i had a way to spot and stop him, but if i was zealot with flamer instead, then i or someone else would be dead. Also it leads to meta slaving, even when something else might’ve worked better, you just can’t afford to check. ---
**Author:** ![Lafiel](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/lafiel/32/106135_2.png) [@Lafiel](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Lafiel)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 8:52pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/13 "2025-10-10T20:52:15Z")
I mean is it really a problem because I don’t see almost any difference between havoc 30 and havoc 40 at this point. I always queue with randoms and have no problem going back to 40 after a reset happens. ---
**Author:** ![MadMartigan](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/madmartigan/32/85568_2.png) [@MadMartigan](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/MadMartigan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/14 "2025-10-10T21:11:12Z")
The problem is that you _have_ to queue. You can’t just play h40 whenever you like despite finishing many h40 missions already ---
**Author:** ![ramrod\_ikarus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9de0a6/32.png) [@ramrod\_ikarus](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/ramrod_ikarus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2025, 6:06am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/15 "2025-10-11T06:06:25Z")
Yeah and while we’re at it allow malice players to freely choose their havoc rank. /Sarcasm ---
**Author:** ![Lafiel](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/lafiel/32/106135_2.png) [@Lafiel](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Lafiel)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2025, 9:30am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/16 "2025-10-11T09:30:16Z")
I don’t see the issue? You think Havoc will benefit from a quickplay? I personally don’t. And if you are having trouble with the rank system by not having a 33% winrate ,do you really need to blame the demotion system? I have had streaks of losing 20 in a row, but also winning 10 in a row. ---
**Author:** ![mikesol91](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mikesol91/32/35791_2.png) [@mikesol91](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/mikesol91)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2025, 11:01am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/17 "2025-10-11T11:01:24Z")
I hear you but FS should consider this simple fact: “retention” / “Demotion has caused me to avoid havoc on many, many occasions when I actually wanted to play it”. The above may be true for way more players than the ones who get to stick by their stupid “retention” method. ---
**Author:** ![mikesol91](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mikesol91/32/35791_2.png) [@mikesol91](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/mikesol91)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2025, 11:34am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/18 "2025-10-11T11:34:49Z")
As I see it, this “retention” strategy which devides, scrutinizes something that should be fun and finally pushes players away can be harmful even to FS. Do they want a mode which is populated by only a handful of sweatlords or a healthy gaming community distributed evenly on appropriate havok ranks which do not decay and this way everyone are only encouraged to do even better in order to climb to 40 without the fear of losing their hard earned current one. I mean it’s win win for both devs and players. Why they just cannot get it? Imen ---
**Author:** ![mikesol91](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mikesol91/32/35791_2.png) [@mikesol91](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/mikesol91)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2025, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/19 "2025-10-11T11:39:53Z")
Challenge will be there regardless of demotion or not. Getting rid of demotion though will mitigate innate issues like deranking due to random teammates skill issues, servers hiccups, crushes etc. Also I think climbing the ladder to 40 is quite a challenge by itself. We don’t need deranking to make it even harder but in a stupid and unfun way… ---
**Author:** ![mikesol91](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/mikesol91/32/35791_2.png) [@mikesol91](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/mikesol91)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2025, 11:58am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488/20 "2025-10-11T11:58:19Z")
Man that’s exactly what I had in mind when I wrote my post. All of them true. Also demotion system at its current state makes finding team even harder because being afraid of your last remaining attempt before you find yourself to square 1 again, you have to wait and wait for the appropriate players to find their way to your lobby. And exactly the same applies when you vote to join a lobby where the owner thinks the same way clinging to their last attempt. The whole demotion crap only leads to hard “casting” , meta slaving (as noone will risk their attempts with experimental builds) and finally players burnout. [Next page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havok-demotion-system-is-bad/113488.md?page=2)