# Havoc isn't a good balance consideration **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2025, 4:29am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820 "2025-03-12T04:29:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CobaltNinja](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/cobaltninja/32/71678_2.png) [@CobaltNinja](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/CobaltNinja)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 4:29am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/1 "2025-03-12T04:29:43Z")
Idle musing on this while my short attention span browses through long posts on this forum. About 10% of comments I see are talking about how “this isn’t going to affect havoc at all” or “havoc 40 players continue to dominate with the same strategy”. Isn’t the point of Havoc to be separate from the base game? A difficulty _not_ to be balanced around? So ridiculously hard only a fraction of the playerbase is going to enjoy it? I’m getting really sick of seeing Havoc mentioned in every balance post like it’s a silver bullet on how everything must work. It’s not and I refuse to see it as fun. Overall, I see the inclusion of the game mode as a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Epic\_Cole](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/epic_cole/32/90675_2.png) [@Epic\_Cole](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Epic_Cole)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 5:09am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/2 "2025-03-12T05:09:44Z")
The game isnt balanced around havoc, havoc is balanced around itself. The most havoc does for game balance is show everyone just how much of an outlier things are across the entire game and that they may need to be reigned in. But the actual balance itself for these things and others still is done on the damnation level. If people are talking about the fact that xyz should be buffed becaus it cant do abc in havoc, they can talk into a void ---
**Author:** ![Ryshek](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ryshek/32/92339_2.png) [@Ryshek](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ryshek)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 5:20am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/3 "2025-03-12T05:20:10Z")
> [@Epic\_Cole](#): > > But the actual balance itself for these things and others still is done on the damnation level. I’ve never seen a statement from fatshark stating what their game is balance around when it comes to difficulty level. Hi Epic\_Cole! ---
**Author:** ![Jado](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/jado/32/120644_2.png) [@Jado](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Jado)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 6:07am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/4 "2025-03-12T06:07:02Z")
> [@Ryshek](#): > > I’ve never seen a statement from fatshark stating what their game is balance around when it comes to difficulty level. > > Hi Epic\_Cole! * * * To be completely honest, and this is not meant as a jab at Fatshark, but I don’t believe Fatshark knows what the game is balanced around because I have seen no evidence of any Fatshark staff playing at a difficulty level high enough to indicate that they are 1. above average skill level and 2. understand their game and thus can adjust it accordingly. I’d love to be wrong and have someone shut me down, and I’ve talked about previously Asian game developers like Yoshi-P and how they work differently than Western developers, but it seems that all of the feedback and changes are happening because playtesters are pestering Fatshark about stuff that doesn’t work properly, and not because the staff themselves play the game and tweak when things don’t feel right. ---
**Author:** ![CobaltNinja](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/cobaltninja/32/71678_2.png) [@CobaltNinja](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/CobaltNinja)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 6:32am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/5 "2025-03-12T06:32:40Z")
Spreadsheet balancing is a sin, a-ye, and I don’t follow FS streams, but I _do_ recall that @Exanimia played on-stream on Damnation difficulty, and did well at it. She also played with the Spidey Sense mod (accessibility reasons; she’s deaf), though whether this means Fatshark takes mods into consideration when balancing or developing the game, I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/index/32/95844_2.png) [@Index](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 6:34am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/6 "2025-03-12T06:34:30Z")
> [@CobaltNinja](#): > > continue to dominate with the same strategy you mean “safety net” / lazyness and “cowardice” yeah, seen the the 4x zealot or 2/2 combos. reason why havoc 40 on them is just another ASS weilding north korean general for me. no respect from me and simply to the ignore list. doesnt make me enjoy havoc much more mind you, but “stolen valor” is no-no, game or not. come to think, even lower, guess a veterans bonus gets you something in the real world 😄 ---
**Author:** ![Pirx](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/pirx/32/96156_2.png) [@Pirx](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Pirx)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 6:55am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/7 "2025-03-12T06:55:02Z")
havoc is just reinforcing the meta. doesn’t mean one can’t try anything else in havoc, but that’s something one can do with friends, and not with the assumptions many people in that party finder have, and you can’t even start a game without them. ---
**Author:** ![Rickenbacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@Rickenbacker](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rickenbacker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 7:29am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/8 "2025-03-12T07:29:20Z")
Calling Havoc is a endgame is the stupidiest thing I have ever read. Its barely alive right now lmao. Havoc is artificial difficulty, slide simulator in ammo scarcity and someones calling it as the core of the balance and like “doesnt change the state of Ogryns in Havoc”, bro, even veteran whos pointed to shoot cant shoot in havoc. Nearly all modifiers are just lame. Same ol’ only melee malestorm can offer more in terms of interest and challenge. 99% weapons, skills, builds are straight dead in havoc above lvl27. Its weaves 2.0 in slightly better cover but it will never be the core of the balance, you see the talkin about havoc so often just because nearly all youtube content full of havoc because there is simply nothing to show new and people getting strong desillusion like havoc is something fun (it is for someone who dont mind playing 1 weapon 1 build over and over again) ---
**Author:** ![DornIvanotic](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/dornivanotic/32/84585_2.png) [@DornIvanotic](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/DornIvanotic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 7:31am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/9 "2025-03-12T07:31:40Z")
this is a melee combat game, with ranged options as secondaries ---
**Author:** ![CobaltNinja](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/cobaltninja/32/71678_2.png) [@CobaltNinja](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/CobaltNinja)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 7:45am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/10 "2025-03-12T07:45:05Z")
After managing to sift through the word salad (paragraphs, people, paragraphs) I agree with you. I would also like to add that Havoc is a _damn slog._ Takes like an hour to beat a mission on Havoc compared to the 30 minutes on Auric Damns. You’re not having any fun for that hour. ---
**Author:** ![Rickenbacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@Rickenbacker](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rickenbacker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 8:24am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/11 "2025-03-12T08:24:06Z")
Its a shooter game, with me melee as options. Fact that mostly people bad at shooting doesnt wrap the thing. Main threat - ranged mobs, half of the treee in every class about ranged weapons and cherry on the top - even Fatsharks call it as a looter-shooter. So all that “havoc idea” is primarly made for min-max nerds still living in VT2 ---
**Author:** ![Enforest](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/enforest/32/73699_2.png) [@Enforest](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Enforest)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 8:39am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/12 "2025-03-12T08:39:29Z")
The reason why the game is not and should not be balanced around Havoc is unnecessary artificial difficulty modifiers that don’t exist outside of this game mode. The prime example is reduced ammo gain from most sources. What is the point of this? I will just get around it by stopping using most of my builds and play as melee Zealot/Staff Psyker/Plasma Vet/Shield Ogryn, etc. Congrats, I have beaten the “hardest” content in the game by using a min-maxed cookie cutter build that ignores 90% of the available gear in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/index/32/95844_2.png) [@Index](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 9:50am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/13 "2025-03-12T09:50:03Z")
> [@Rickenbacker](#): > > with me melee as options without that “option” every trigger happy vet would waste a teams worth of ammo into every little horde thinking “boy am i a god of headshots” no, darktide’s meat thats thrown at you is 70+% melee as the cleaner/sweeper option and the rest ranged for softening them before getting to the grinder range or taking care of snipers/tappers etc before the get a mate. if i was to play mainly ranged i’d be out of ammo at 20% of the map IF we got that far on the process getting swarmed at elbows length. and enemies having ranged capacity isnt saying you play civil war stalemate shootouts. you slide like a worm infected dog on crack and close the gap \>3 seconds without getting hit ---
**Author:** ![Cheturnadcatii](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/cheturnadcatii/32/79639_2.png) [@Cheturnadcatii](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Cheturnadcatii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 10:13am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/14 "2025-03-12T10:13:35Z")
> [@Epic\_Cole](#): > > The game isnt balanced around havoc, havoc is balanced around itself. When we have havoc absence week (in late december if im correct) i play auric damnation with another havoc players. We just roll through level like it was malice. So i can tell u that havoc (35+) is more difficult then auric damnation. Yes havoc is more meta depending, but we always have meta builds in games. So… Me like havoc. ---
**Author:** ![Elodie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/aca169/32.png) [@Elodie](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Elodie)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 10:25am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/15 "2025-03-12T10:25:06Z")
It is a _part_ of the balance consideration, but definitely not the “silver bullet” for it, as you so eloquently put. But you tend to see the same issue in every game, like say MMO endgame raid & PvP balance talks and how people obviously favor those endgame activities over everything else. But we needn’t even go that far. Most of us in DT - myself included - often argue for balance issues purely from T5+ perspective. That all weapons, talents, blessings etc. should be relevant there. Even tho levels 1-30, Malice & below difficulties do matter too. Quite a few of the blessings, talents and weapons are obviously designed for casual play & ease-of-use, not just us experts and tryhards. Personally I don’t care at all about Havoc, not the way it works now. And I definitely agree that it shouldn’t be any kind of a benchmark for overall balance. But Havoc definitely exposed the meta for what it is, what with the Duelling Swords, plasma etc everywhere bc with that much performance pressure those options that used to be “good enough” just aren’t. At least including Havoc in the balance discussions does have meaning and value for the game as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Durandal94](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/durandal94/32/113472_2.png) [@Durandal94](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Durandal94)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 10:40am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/16 "2025-03-12T10:40:24Z")
> [@Epic\_Cole](#): > > But the actual balance itself for these things and others still is done on the damnation level. Good ---
**Author:** ![Rvl](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/rvl/32/115814_2.png) [@Rvl](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rvl)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 10:51am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/17 "2025-03-12T10:51:23Z")
Aside from one map and a few weapons, it’s basically the only content they have added in something like 5 months… They should balance for it as well if they added it in the first place. If they will keep adding new modifiers to it (aka content), they should improve viability of builds in there. Unless, of course, they want around 2k daily players on Steam to be a permanent number. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_jw](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/hank_jw/32/78276_2.png) [@Hank\_jw](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Hank_jw)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 11:20am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/18 "2025-03-12T11:20:00Z")
> [@Jado](#): > > To be completely honest, and this is not meant as a jab at Fatshark, but I don’t believe Fatshark knows what the game is balanced around because I have seen no evidence of any Fatshark staff playing at a difficulty level high enough to indicate that they are 1. above average skill level and 2. understand their game and thus can adjust it accordingly Here’s me doing Havoc 40 with a Fatshark developer, one of the weapon designers. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/1VDJL5TCN90/maxresdefault.jpg "Havoc 40 with Two OGRYNS and a FATSHARK DEV [Build + Gameplay] (NO SHOUTIES ALLOWED) - Darktide") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VDJL5TCN90) ---
**Author:** ![DornIvanotic](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/dornivanotic/32/84585_2.png) [@DornIvanotic](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/DornIvanotic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 11:21am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/19 "2025-03-12T11:21:10Z")
having arth is cheating ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_jw](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/hank_jw/32/78276_2.png) [@Hank\_jw](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Hank_jw)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820/20 "2025-03-12T11:23:47Z")
True, man’s a machine. [Next page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-isnt-a-good-balance-consideration/105820.md?page=2)