# Havoc game mode - artificial difficulty **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 10, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063 "2024-12-10T15:54:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 1:53pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/142 "2024-12-12T13:53:39Z")
> [@zaygr](#): > > Where’s the hard to see and overlapping with other visual modifiers, randomly less melee damage modifier? Or the modifier that specifically hits zealot? - 2x melee attack speed for enemies - 30% corruption damage - x1.5 enemy melee damages - -50% toughness regen speed - -45 toughness - -35% HP - -75% ammos from pickups All this can make your journey harder with zealot. I don’t understand your hate about zealot… And no, Ogryn don’t suffer more from fading light. They suffer like others. Like you could also tell me that toughness and health penalties apply to all classes. True. But you are just claiming that zealot have a peaceful path to havoc level 40… and this is not true. What is true however, is that zealot are greatly recommended for beacon of purity to make your journey safer. ---
**Author:** ![JanZamoysky](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/janzamoysky/32/87926_2.png) [@JanZamoysky](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/JanZamoysky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 1:58pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/143 "2024-12-12T13:58:34Z")
> [@anon41016878](#): > > My choices are ballbusting shooter balance on Havoc that kinda prohibits me from playing the game with much variety or pisseasy aurics that are just completely trivialized by the current meta stuff. A logical move here would be adjust the meta, weapon and class wise, instead of destroying the build variety with “difficulty” modifiers. Player power creep since Patch 13 has been considerable. Fatshark has the data, and all they have to be willing to do is analyse it. This is likely to step on some mini-maxer toes, who have been using broken build and weapon combos, to the point they consider the normal game difficulty p…easy. I for one welcome the new difficulty modifiers and the challenge here, especially if you don’t run a full well tested pre-made party. Stacked gunner changes feel cheap and change too much how you can play, thanks to Time To Kill values on players, but Fatshark doesn’t always get everything right. I just wish the whole experience allowed for player agency and was less restrictive, convoluted, so we can do such basic things as choosing a map, applied difficulty modifiers, and join such advertised custom games as we please. ---
**Author:** ![zaygr](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/zaygr/32/71131_2.png) [@zaygr](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/zaygr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 2:23pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/144 "2024-12-12T14:23:31Z")
I don’t hate zealot and I didn’t say zealots have it particularly easier, but there is definitely a slight bias where a lot of the modifiers, especially the big headlining modifiers, affect everyone else more than Zealot. Ammo? Doesn’t affect zealot’s main focus, which is melee in 99% of their builds. Corruption? Beacon. HP penalty? Already have a high HP pool. Toughness? Still more than ogryn. I’m just pointing out there isn’t really one modifier that has a disproportionally larger effect on zealot alone than all the other archetypes like the other archetypes do. It’s more a criticism of the modifiers themselves than zealot itself. ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/index/32/95844_2.png) [@Index](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/145 "2024-12-12T14:24:11Z")
> [@1Cake](#): > > not drown in green рiss ironically thats the least of my ogryn concerns. so far branx keeps efficient distance to lawnmow them hordes while getting very little corruption in return. the hardes “modifier” though still is “rejected”. doing just fine in havoc all around but either finding a team or even hosting, ogryn seems a deterrent for most people. shoutout to the forum guys for offering to team up, right now i´m speaking of a general evening of free time that´s right now filled with waiting and “rejected” i mean sure, i like to get “true survivor” and beat lvl 40 like the next guy, had no problems in havoc until whole team went belly up in some encounters. still not having the option in general to play whenever i want whatever i want leaves me 🤷‍♂️ about why play the mode at all ---
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 2:31pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/146 "2024-12-12T14:31:52Z")
> [@zaygr](#): > > Ammo? Doesn’t affect zealot’s main focus, which is melee in 99% of their builds. Corruption? Beacon. HP penalty? Already have a high HP pool. Toughness? Still more than ogryn. I’m just pointing out there isn’t really one modifier that has a disproportionally larger effect on zealot alone than all the other archetypes. I totally disagree with you. You are forced to have beacon of purity. This is a lot restricting the talents you can take. Ammos, well we can say that of all classes. A veteran can go melee. What, it is restrictive? not much than beacon of purity. HP pool… yes it affects me, I had to put health curios instead of toughness. Toughness change? biggest threat, cause you take more damages in melee. And the damages? you did not say anything about the 50% increase of damages and the 100% increase of melee attack speed… I stick with the point that ammo penalty is a bad move when it reaches -75%. This is too much. I don’t say that they should remove this hidden modifier, I say that it is too much. However, a lot of modifiers impact a lot the zealot. And as the zealot has to be in melee 99% of the time of a mission, I believe that they impact a lot the zealot. > [@zaygr](#): > > I don’t hate zealot and I didn’t say zealots have it particularly easier This is what I read when I have seen these posts. My apologies if I did not understand correctly your posts. Here what made me think that: > [@zaygr](#): > > **There are too many modifiers (hidden or otherwise) that simply do not affect zealots**, or affects the other archetypes out of proportion compared to zealot. > [@zaygr](#): > > Where’s the hard to see and overlapping with other visual modifiers, randomly less melee damage modifier? **Or the modifier that specifically hits zealot?** There are no modifier specific for a class, except the quell penalty for the psyker. ---
**Author:** ![zaygr](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/zaygr/32/71131_2.png) [@zaygr](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/zaygr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 2:34pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/147 "2024-12-12T14:34:41Z")
This is what the modifiers feel like right now, assuming modifiers A, B, C and D How much it affects each archetype: | | Zealot | Veteran | Psyker | Ogryn | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | A | 100% | 150% | 100% | 100% | | B | 100% | 100% | 150% | 100% | | C | 100% | 100% | 100% | 150% | | D | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | ---
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 2:35pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/148 "2024-12-12T14:35:48Z")
What this means? I don’t even understand what you want to say with your table. modifiers apply to all classes… ---
**Author:** ![zaygr](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/zaygr/32/71131_2.png) [@zaygr](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/zaygr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/149 "2024-12-12T14:39:00Z")
I’m saying that even though they are affecting all archetypes, there are modifiers that hits a specific archetype harder than the others, but based on the modifier and class designs zealot doesn’t have that flaw or weakness. In the table, the zealot is affected 100% by all the modifers, but each of the other archetypes has one modifier that affect them 150% instead, either by hitting their weakness harder, or hitting certain parts of their gameplay. ---
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 2:42pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/150 "2024-12-12T14:42:24Z")
> [@zaygr](#): > > In the table, the zealot is affected 100% by all the modifers, but each of the other archetypes has one modifier that affect them 150% instead. And you think you have demonstrated it? you have just claimed it and not backed that by any evidence. I have quoted you a lot of modifiers that affect the zealot. I don’t see how the melee damage, the corruption damages and the melee attack speed are not specifically impacting more the zealot. ---
**Author:** ![zaygr](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/zaygr/32/71131_2.png) [@zaygr](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/zaygr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/151 "2024-12-12T14:46:52Z")
I never said that zealot are not affected by modifiers, (hence the 100% effect of modifiers A, B, C, D in the table). The modifers do affect everyone, yes, but I’m saying things like the ammo penalty and ranged damage reduction hits a veteran harder because they usually shoot more. The quell speed (in theory) affects only the psyker. A zealot usually melees more, but where is the melee damage reduction modifier? Why are there specific modifers that only affect ranged gameplay? I’m saying that with the current modifiers they have and the design of the zealot, the zealot usually has more and better tools in their kit to handle a lot of those modifiers. ---
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/152 "2024-12-12T14:52:50Z")
> [@zaygr](#): > > The modifers do affect everyone, yes, but I’m saying things like the ammo penalty and ranged damage reduction hits a veteran harder because they usually shoot more. So 1 specific modifier for veteran (and you forgot Ranged ogryn). Against 3 for the zealot So, let’s say veteran is affected by 150%, it surely means that zealot is at 250%. > [@zaygr](#): > > The quell speed (in theory) affects only the psyker. Again against 3 specifically affecting zealot * * * And by the way, I am against ammo modifier that I think is ridiculously too strong. I don’t disagree with the modifier itself, but by the strong penalty. 75% is too much. Feel free to open a thread about it. I don’t like lasguns, so THIS modifier forbids me to play my veteran other than with a melee build (something I would not test on havoc, at least for now). So, I am with you on this. However, saying that zealot is less impacted is untrue. What is true however is that ranged BALLISTIC veteran is forbidden to play in havoc (with the exception of revolver). And this is terrible. But this also impact the ranged weapon ogryn also. I don’t imagine to go with the twin linked heavy stubber in havoc. ---
**Author:** ![zaygr](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/zaygr/32/71131_2.png) [@zaygr](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/zaygr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 3:01pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/153 "2024-12-12T15:01:23Z")
I would still say the ammo affects veteran and ogryn more than zealot as zealot doesn’t really have a dedicated ranged build, meaning they can purely melee noticeably more efficiently than veteran. It all circles around to the modifiers railroading build variety pretty hard. I’m more frustrated at the disparity between ranged and melee affecting modifiers (not specifically at zealots, it’s just that they tend to go full melee 99% of the time and I can see them ignore the reduction of ammo and ranged damage a little easier), because I like playing ranged, there are these modifiers that make specifically ranged more frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 3:16pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/154 "2024-12-12T15:16:22Z")
> [@zaygr](#): > > I would still say the ammo affects veteran and ogryn more than zealot as zealot doesn’t really have a dedicated ranged build, meaning they can purely melee noticeably more efficiently than veteran. And I agree… I can live without ammos on zealot. That’s why I carry a flamer in havoc. This is a one time weapon use for bosses. And after if I can find ammos, great… if not, well I will deal with the situation without it. But, again, you quote one modifier while zealot has 3 that aim at this class specifically (and also ogryn melee let’s not forget the big guys). So, in fact, you just point ONE modifier. So, you point a difficulty balance problem (that I have pointed [here](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-my-feelings-and-yes-i-played-it/102954)). This is not that the zealot have an advantage, melee ogryn are in same situation. Let’s not speak about psyker… Several would say that you can still play melee veteran… totally true. However, I would not go to havoc with a melee veteran cause of the corruption. And I can play melee veteran in auric histg, I did it. But not in havoc, cause of the corruption. But also, I think that veteran is about ranged weapons. Maybe that’s dumb… but that’s my feeling. And I feel really restricted cause they want to force me to go to lasgun with a critical build. But let’s say it, veteran is not the worst. Ogryn that would want to use ranged weapon has a big disadvantage compared to veteran. Only veteran has shock trooper that permits him to still use a ranged weapon in havoc. But, as I said, I don’t like lasgun. Maybe just my problem. But considering this, I won’t play veteran on havoc, and I see close to no veteran in havoc (and none at high difficulty level). In fact, if you play veteran with shock trooper, you get a lot less bad modifiers on the veteran than what the zealot has to deal with. But again my opinion si that ammo pickup with the penalty of 75% is too much. However, modifiers aim all classes, and what I have quoted for zealot have a BIG impact on the zealot gameplay. You have to do less errors cause when you do one… you suffer and by a lot. ---
**Author:** ![zaygr](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/zaygr/32/71131_2.png) [@zaygr](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/zaygr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/155 "2024-12-12T15:19:39Z")
I still hate pus skin armour though. That combined with the ammo penalty makes it 400% worse than it already is. ---
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/156 "2024-12-12T15:20:27Z")
as I said: > [@Havoc, my feelings - And yes I played it](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-my-feelings-and-yes-i-played-it/102954/1): > > - **About gameplays restrictions** > - ammo modifier: this is seriously annoying that, one class, that is balanced toward ranged weapons, has to use either lasgun or have to go melee. This impact too much ranged weapons gameplay > - corruption: too many things are built around the corruption factor. This lead to a several talents that are too great for this mode > - melee ftw: There’s a problem on this. The melee is too much important in Havoc. I love melee, but here this is the best way to deal with enemies. Why no modifier on melee, like enemies that resist more against melee? I don’t see why hardened skin does not give also resistance against melee hits. > - psykers: When you put a modifier that impacts ammos, a penalty should also apply on powers for psykers staves. I don’t see why psykers have never something that impacts them. However, please… no penalty ONLY for them. What I mean here is that, if you penalize ranged weapons, penalize ALL and not all except psykers. > > About the gameplays restrictions, I don’t like that Veterans (ranged weapons orientated) are so restricted, just to use lasguns. I don’t like that the zealot should take Beacon of purity. I don’t like that, as a psyker, you should take shield. > I am sure that it won’t last, cause players will adapt and find ways to deal with these difficulties. However, really, modifiers that restrict so much gameplays are not welcomed. > I know that the vet can deal with it with critical, when using lasguns, that don’t consume ammos. However, this does not apply to ballistic weapons. > So, anything that will impact badly gameplays, are a big no in my opinion. And that’s my main complain about this mode. Since that Baldwin pointed the hidden modifiers for melee. But still, I maintain my feeling about ammo and also the modifier that give enemies a ranged weapon resist. ---
**Author:** ![Index](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/index/32/95844_2.png) [@Index](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Index)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 3:31pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/157 "2024-12-12T15:31:01Z")
all the more reason to have an ogryn on the team ⛏ only “issue” so far i´ve had in havoc is perceived less stamina, got my branx ballet so engrained right now dodging after each combo… other than that even blight spread isnt an issue as corruption is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![defallt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@defallt](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/defallt)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 12:33am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/158 "2024-12-13T00:33:16Z")
Why do they keep choosing to hide these artificial difficulty modifiers from the player? For instance, the “overcorruption” damage or the psyker quelling nerfs which overall make psyker feel even worse to play in havoc aren’t documented anywhere in the game for a player to know about. It’s not difficult to document and reveal to the player in some kind of dropdown UI in the havoc play menu that they will be getting certain nerfs which could influence build strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Amelia](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/amelia/32/35846_2.png) [@Amelia](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Amelia)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 3:52am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/159 "2024-12-13T03:52:12Z")
Zealot too needs ammo if using flamer which is a S tier weapon in havoc. Many times i had veterans giving ammo to zealots because the flamer is very good at havoc So it also affects zealot in some part Melee oriented it’s true and a real zealot doesnt need any ammo but it’s very good flamer on havoc which requires some plenty ammo. I was using blaze away and everlasting flame cause not bad for horde clear with a crit build no need to reload and thats also can be massive bonus. Other characters or even other zealots not using flamers they should use ammo only for snipers and only for emergencies. Which reserving ammo for some peoples tied to their weapon may be a bit unfun. ---
**Author:** ![Jado](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/jado/32/120644_2.png) [@Jado](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Jado)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 5:28am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/160 "2024-12-13T05:28:25Z")
> [@Ralendil](#): > > With -75% ammo replenishment? no way. > Or, I will have to use it as spare weapon and so I have to go to melee veteran. * * * The other issue with IAG and Havoc (my veteran always uses an IAG) is that [Pus-Hardened skin] prevents an IAG (and others, but IAG really suffers) from killing things as you advance in rank. Havoc eventually becomes primarily a melee game, with your veteran using a duelist sword 99% of the time because it is the most effective melee weapon at the moment for dealing with a diverse lineup of enemies. This was the primary reason I used my Zealot instead of my Veteran main to get the Havoc penances; I would have to play a loadout that I don’t like on my Veteran and I got to try out the Zealot Relic blade. ---
**Author:** ![Ralendil](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forums.fatsharkgames.com/ralendil/32/108313_2.png) [@Ralendil](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Ralendil)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 6:34am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063/161 "2024-12-13T06:34:15Z")
> [@Amelia](#): > > Other characters or even other zealots not using flamers they should use ammo only for snipers and only for emergencies. Zealot is my main. But I would never ask that I get the ammo in priority. Zealot should always remain the last to get ammos. Even if flamer is useful on havoc, i think that the zealot, as you said, is the class that should be able to play without his ranged weapon. So, considering the penalty of 75%, you are right about the use of a ranged weapon. But this is absolutely not a good design. This impacts too much ranged weapons users. I have not read that havoc is a melee mode… However, this is exactly what happens. Excepted psykers… That, as always, can play ranged while all others cannot. > [@Jado](#): > > The other issue with IAG and Havoc (my veteran always uses an IAG) is that [Pus-Hardened skin] prevents an IAG (and others, but IAG really suffers) from killing things as you advance in rank. Agree. Written a little above. I maintain that there is a problem with havoc and the veteran class. And I really want that Fatshark fixes that. So I stay with what I have writen. Hardened skin should work for ranged AND for melee. The ammo penalty should be reduced (50% is enough). [Previous page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/havoc-game-mode-artificial-difficulty/103063.md?page=9)