I would not necessarily agree with that. There are plenty of first-person games with good cosmetic system and people still go a long way to obtain these cosmetics. Look at Deep Rock Galactic, Destiny 2, etc.
It’s not just about you being able to see yourself all the time. It’s about you knowing how you look like to yourself and to others around you when you play.
Not really, it forces you to do random things instead of just playing the game. I enjoy the normal gameplay, I don’t enjoy having to obsess over specific random tasks before I’m allowed to use a cosmetic I paid for.
A good amount of cosmetics are weapon cosmetics, though I have to ask why you care whether a cosmetic is behind a challenge or not if you don’t even care about them?
What do you think would be a challenge that’s a good display of skill, without being something completely trivial that you’ll unlock through normal play, or gating cosmetics behind obnoxious “Headshot a boss 30 times in a row” style requirements?
Sure, and I’ve got no issue with further challenges, as long as they’re not required to unlock paid cosmetics.
I don’t know, it’s not my place to design these things. But as I said, skill is relevant, what one may consider skillful or meaningful, someone else may call obnoxious or trivial.
I would say something along the lines of, long-range precision shots, killing gutter-runners in mid flight, killing leeches immediately after they teleport… I don’t know. Tons of people still can’t even finish Nurgloth fight without being hit by his AoE (I guess that is a skill-based challenge as well).
The Important aspect would be locking such specific challenges behind a certain difficulty, so that it can’t just be trivialized by recruit grind.
edit: come to think of it, finishing a run without dealing any friendly fire (while having at least x ranged kills) or without taking any damage would be interesting as well.
Also while we’re at it, don’t forget that challenges should er… challenge you. I honestly think some of those “annoying” challenges are fine. If you already run cata every day, most of those skillful challenges probably wouldn’t challenge you.
Doing something you normally wouldn’t though…
Not saying you should lock everything behind those, just that these challenges shouldn’t be abolished entirely.
The difference is that for DLC stuff you have to undergo a separate payment labeled “Cosmetic Upgrade”. Literally all that is provided for that specific package which you purchased is a set of cosmetics. I don’t mind the idea of beating challenges for cosmetics, but if you are going to sell them as an entirely separate package, you really need to find a way to put those challenges within the realm of reason. Having to win a whooping 100 missions to unlock the Grail Knight’s hat was probably the worst offender of the lot. The challenge itself didn’t prove absolutely anything about your abilities as a player and only locked a hat that you specifically paid for behind an extra ~30 hours of gameplay (give or take, depending on how you went about that). Since I specifically paid for it, maybe I’d like to wear the hat now and not when I need a break from the game or the career due to burnout.
If I had a shilling for every cata fow frame player who was a complete potato I’d buy Lohner out of his Emporium. There isn’t a single challenge in this game that can’t be effectively nullified or skipped with a little bit of determination and know-how, and as such the cosmetics themselves don’t really reflect anything in that regard. Sure, the player might have completed that specific challenge the hard way, but it’s just as likely that they simply xd’d the game and ticked another one out of the book. Which is why I believe you should always evaluate skill through gameplay, rather than what the player is wearing.
These are all pretty trivial, they’re effectively just a timegate. Same for the FF one, you just do a run where you don’t shoot much at all.
This is 100% worse than basically any challenge in the game currently lol. You’d just get people holding block in lobbies hoping for carries and that they don’t get screwed over by enemy AoE. I’ve got a lot of hours in this game and like to consider myself a pretty good player, and I’ve not done more than a couple of no damage runs while playing normally.
I don’t see why cosmetic packs should be viewed any differently to the premium hats honestly. You’re purchasing specific cosmetic items, the barrier is you paying for them.
I doubt anyone here wants the hats to be locked behind shillings as well as real currency, even though that would make sure that you have to play to unlock them.
I think there’s a discrepancy between what FS’ intent of splitting DLCs was vs. what people feel they are. FS basically put work into the new careers and weapons, and priced them at a certain amount based on what they needed to be worth to make the effort worth it. After that, however, they felt people would complain about the price being too high and / or people not being able to afford the new stuff. So they decided to split the essentials gameplay-wise from the technically unneeded stuff like challenges and cosmetics for a much cheaper price for those people. Had they just not done that and just released the new careers as a single package nobody would have complained they didn’t get all the cosmetics for free. Just like nobody is complaining they don’t get all the 100 game hats for free because they bought those cosmetics with the base game.
That’s the thing: to me doing random stupid crаp in game still is playing the game.
You’re right, I don’t, and anyone who has played with me can testify to that. I do care about challenges though - that is why I disagree that they are not content. Especially as opposed to cosmetics which has exactly zero traction with any of the in-game mechanics (with the notable exception of some shield illusions that make you see better)
So yeah, I bought both careers sans cosmetics and still did all the challenges. They are fun, and I don’t need ugly virtual clothing given to my account in order to feel motivated to do them. They are fun to me, and evidently, I’m not alone.
As to locking paid cosmetics behind challenges, I don’t have an opinion precisely because none of them hold any value for me. As it was clearly displayed in this thread, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. And frankly, that gets off topic.
that’s fine, like I said earlier I’ve got no issue with challenges being added as long as there’s not paid content locked behind completing them. if you enjoy them all power to you
This is really more down to us not bothering to give feedback for stuff that isn’t going to change, I think.
I would absolutely make a whole heap of changes to the current cosmetic system if I could, including making every single base game cosmetic purchasable through shillings, or just automatically unlocked once you get your first red of whatever weapon type. Not perfect, but good enough for content that’s tied to the larger purchase instead of specific cosmetic upgrades.
But it did. Outcast Engineer had reduced number of games for the hat which is fine by me. Sister of the Thorn doesn’t require anything at all.
I think all that comes to the specific challenge implementation and “exploit-proof-ness”. Regarding the FOW frames (and Weave frames as well) those were possible to obtain through in-game exploits and bugs during the match (maybe still are I don’t know), so unfortunately as it is now, you can’t really know who got them legitimately and who did not.
That, however, is not an issue with the challenge, but rather with the game being a buggy mess. Nevertheless, no one said that you should value someone’s skill based on what cosmetic they have.
It has never been about having a cosmetic in order to show how skilled you are, but rather to have some difficult and challenging goal you can progressively work towards and eventually be rewarded by some cool looking thing. While at the same time show that you have accomplished something.
You forgot to quote the part which states that you need to have a certain amount of ranged kill to accomplish that hypothetical challenge so that it could not be bypassed this way.
Never the less, you disregarding any of my hasty made examples proves nothing really. I am sure if they put enough time into it, FS would be able to come up with interesting challenges that are not so easily bypassed.
You are missing the entire point of this discussion.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d completely overhaul the current system as well! But my point isn’t that the current specifics of the way cosmetics are earned are good, but more that it feels better to earn them vs. just getting them for free. Even if the challenges could be more engaging, or less frustrating, or less RNG-dependant: Getting cosmetics by earning them one way or another is much better than just getting them for no reason. With the latest content it’s just like: “Thank for the money, here’s some fancy stuff that you normally have to earn in this game. But you bought them, so here you go.” Yay? Getting all the fancy looking items for free with the new weapon pack actually felt super anticlimactic and, frankly, quite disapointing to me.
They would not be ugly if FS used at least a sliver of the existing Warhammer art and put it into the game though 
This pretty much sums it all up.
With the first two dlc careers I paid for challenges that gave cosmetics by completing them.
With SotT I paid for cosmetics and challenges that gave mostly shillings.
I knew with every purchase what I was getting and I enjoyed the experience of the first two careers more. It just boils down to personal preference for every person.
For fatshark the only thing that matters is with which method they can get the most sales.
I understand people wanting the cosmetics as soon as they buy the package but I never saw them as a cosmetics only dlc but rather the possibility to get cosmetics through challenges.
Regardless, both ways are take it or leave it and the most impactful feedback is given by our collective wallets.
Edit:
I wouldn’t have bought the package on day 1 without the challenges.
Just like with the other cosmetics (hats) i’d have waited for a sale.
Okay? I wasn’t talking about engi, I was talking about base game cosmetics, which people have been talking about issues with basically forever. If anything engi getting changes when base game things didn’t is even more proof they’re never going to change.
Not really, you’d still just bypass it the exact same way lol. Never use your ranged weapon when anyone is even near you, spam shots at ambients when you can.
Unless you make the number so high it’ll just cause people to be detrimental in QP games, that would be a pretty pointless challenge, it’s just “do a run with this weapon” in a more boring way.
I dunno why you’d be so sure of this when they’ve made plenty of challenges and so consistently failed at doing this.
None of the cosmetics being discussed here are free, they’re content you specifically buy.
Do you expect to have to earn the premium hats as well? I feel like I’ve brought that point up a few times now and never had anyone address why it’s any different.
Should we have to do challenges to unlock those hats, or spend shillings as well? Should we have to go back to the old system where you need to spam runs in order to get your new weapons at all? Do a challenge to unlock the new careers?
The way I see it, making cosmetics not require challenges means that people who won’t do the challenges have a reason to buy it, and people who would prefer to unlock the cosmetics will buy it anyway because they still want the skins. Making them freely unlocked is the option that turns off the least amount of people here, unless there’s some hidden market that refuses to buy skins unless they need to spend an hour unlocking each one first.
All other “glowy” weapon illusions in the game need to be earned. (Whether that is done in an engaging way is another discussion, but you don’t get them for free.) All other black armors need to be earned. All other fancy tier frames need to be earned. All other classes have a specific hat reward for playing a certain amount of games on a specific difficulty. Nobody is making the inane argument that all these things should have just been handed out automatically for free because they are part of the base game you bought. But in the latest DLCs these things suddenly get handed out for free instead, breaking with the way the game normally does things. I thought FS was really going in the right direction when, for example, with GK and Engi you needed to earn the glowy weapon illusions with a challenge specific for that weapon (as oppposed to stupid RNG), or a fancy frame by doing all career related challenges. (Getting armor recolors by doing a career related challenge was also a good move on my opinion.) In any case: Just getting stuff that you normally have to “earn” one way or another for free feels super out of place and anticlimactic to me. And that there exists a seperate type of cosmetics like a multitude of creative hats and armors that can be bought with shillings or money has nothing to with any of that (and I personally think that those seperate buyable cosmetics are a good thing).
The argument that glowy weapons and black armor and fancy frames should just be handed out because you bought the career is exactly the same (and just as stupid) as argueing that all comparable cosmetics for the base classes should just be handed out for free because you paid for the base game. And that is what you are ultimately argueing here.
The OP didn’t even ask for cosmetic rewards for these challenges. There are certainly plenty in the community that like these challenges for their own sake and have pushed to 100% completion because that’s what interests them, not the rewards.
Personally, I have a limit on how tedious or obnoxious things are before I stop caring. So while I’ve worked on plenty of challenges that had no meaningful reward, I’ve no intention of going out of my way to get stuff like having ungor archers landing a killing blow on a minotaur.
I’ve always liked the idea of challenges more from a fixed state point of view, which weaves could have been great for if presented differently. Like puzzles to solve, or an actual test of skill, rather than blind luck or endless tenacity.
Wouldn’t mind more ways to get Chests for scrap since the Daily Quests are semi-useless/not worth doing after the shilling change