Grail Knight by comparison is a weak hero

True that. A good Bounty Hunter will outkill a Grail Knight in terms of elites, especially noticeable on Vanguard deeds. Not only is BH a better special killer, he is also a better elite killer.

Balancing and changes should be based with non-paywall difficulties in mind (e.g., Legend), and only tweaking for Cataclysm afterwards, since Cataclysm is a paywall-locked difficulty. If Legend isn’t very good, then that should be addressed (and not ignored in favor of a paywall-locked difficulty).

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Both difficulties need to be considered imo

obviously legend takes priority though

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I think cata is important too, paywall or not it is a major mode in the game, but yeah legend is clearly the reasonable thing to balance around. Most of the things that make a weapon decent on cata wouldn’t make it nuts on legend either tbh, like a breakpoint on a ranged weapon in cata won’t impact legend at all, because it already has that particular one.

I personally find legend too easy, but cata borders on too easy too when I’m playing decent, and there’s people who true solo it and find onslaught cata too easy, just not really an argument worth having. There’s always going to be someone who wants it to be balanced around the hardest possible, but legend is a decent spot to look at first.

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In a nutshell why would you go gk when you can go merc with bretonnian longsword or execsword for high elite killer dps, while all of your problems you simply just “walk them off”.

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I read this whole discussion. Jeez that kitten person is dense.

I made an account just to post this.

As a new player I’ve played through all the careers. Why did I pay extra for Grail Knight and he’s weaker than the rest of the melee careers?

Saying the other careers are OP and GK is the only normal character is the equivalent to saying they are all normal and he is underpowered.

So from the perspective of a new player - GK is the weakest melee character.

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No, I’m actively stopping forum feedback leading to power creep of a hero that’s fine.

This explains why I think comparing upwards constantly leads to power creep, which is what was happening in this thread. A long with lots of ignorance of how good his Ultimate is, and people intentionally undervaluing his kit.

The reason I have to do this is Axe and Falc, Billhook and Tuskgor Spear, Spear and Shield. Fatshark were adding power creep with each DLC, which is bad for the game.

His Longsword is already arguably a power crept version of his old Greatsword, obviously not as good on Cata+, but stronger than it on normal Cata which any of his Careers.

This proves my point. This implies you want him to be stronger, either as them or than them. That’s why I’m arguing against it.

GK just got a huge buff with the 1H Mace and Shield change. As either with the Power Talent or the Crit Talent, he can safely remove Elites from the game. Which is his role that he does just fine.

Strongly disagree with this too. He fills his role more than fine, and I’d argue Handmaiden is the weakest Melee in the game in terms of killing power.

He’s also only weaker than the other Melee Careers most optimal setups, and competes just fine with everything else. The fact he can deal with Elite density so easily is what puts him above some of the others for me.

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You still didn’t address my main point above ^

I simply want the classes to be balanced. Charging extra for a new class that can’t perform as well as other melee careers makes no sense. Again - just a new player’s perspective. I imagine it doesn’t really motivate players to pay for DLCs when the content is poorly designed (specifically referring to GK).

GK is mostly fine, but his weapon choice on live is very limited and his abilities tend to be unreliable and lean too much towards “gimmicky”. His power bonus on talent cannot reliably be built around, which is a problem, his “25 more power on charged attacks” is of surprisingly little utility (next to worthless on weapons like 2hhammer, since it does not really allow you to get even close to any relevant break points due to charged attack simply dealing too little damage. same kinda holds true for 2h sword, bretsword due to its unfavourable attack patterns in regard to charged attacks, and on xsword, it is simply a worse version of the crit-instaslaying talent, and GK has, for some reason, no access to halberd) and for a melee only hero, he is a tad bit too squishy.
There are some issues with his active ability leaving you too exposed if you don’t go for the sweap.

Some talents need some looking into, I think you should be able to pick your quests somehow and I am still advocating for him getting innate DR against AoE damage in the range of 50% percent.

But those are minor issues. For the first new carreer, he is rather satisfying to play. His active feels impactful, he can be reasonably geared to have both good CC and elite hunting ability, his mobility is a bit low, I think MAYBE extra dodge distance would also be a good idea. Maybe. Good thing for last row of talents might be to remove the movement speed bonus and simply give him a charge instead. Could be combined with “deals extra damage at maximum charge distance” to reward skilful play. I mean, Shade also gets a pseud-charge as an option for her active, and it is a very reasonable pick on certain builds.

GK is totally fine.

I thought the lack of attack speed talents were going to be a problem and then I tried 2H-hammer and it was AWESOME.

The only thing I would change is to give him access to the halberd.

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I absolutely, 100% agree with Kitten on principle of no power creeping.
I also can’t seem to find GK underpowered.
He can be frustrating at times, because his elite killing is completely overshadowed by a random Waystalker longbow bodyshot on a stormvermin ; but not only can I hold my ground on elite killing - I just finished a game with 40 elites against Waystalker’s effortless 40 elite kills,- but I don’t struggle against specials either ; with the lone exceptions of distant ratlings and blindstormers.
GK could deal with a triggered patrol in a way I don’t see other classes handling that well, and sure he does have some weaknesses like vulnerability during ult casting but they are circumvented easily with a bit of experience. Kiting backwards is easy with his move speed and his forward dashes on heavy attacks, his horde clearing is amazing, his elite killing power is amazing, the quest boons are undeniably great boosts to the team.

GK is not in a bad spot.

Are other better ? Perhaps, but playing Legend on GK is already moronically easy. Should he be boosted ? Please no, as I said this is already easy, don’t make it easier. (I know I should hop on Cata)
Are others OP ? I keep having my sights on waystalker as she is IMO the most OP class in the game atm. I don’t think any other to be that trivializing to the game in a way that just frustrates me to play with - WS makes me question why I’m even bothering playing since she obviously need no mayfly to solo a run - except when she get caught or surrounded by her cockiness.

GK is good, and I don’t think there is a need for a 165 answers thread to complain about a class apparently numerically worse than others where in practice it’s not.

I just plain disagree. I run legend and often - if not always - end up with the damage dealt, mellee kills, elite kills, and quite often specials killed circles when playing with zealots, slayers or WHC…

I never liked the Hammer, what am I missing ? I find the horde clearing sub-par as it is way too slow…

What ? The Bretsword has amazing heavy attacks ; it used to have weird hitboxes on the first two but they either fixed them or I got used to them ; either way they reliably headshot anything and usually one-shot up to stormvermins on legend - 2 hits for maulers and 3 for CW.

Nah, the shield has 10 stamina and the push-attack - shield bash (light attack) combo is amazing - and I mean AMAZING - at making space for you and your team. Play with a handmaiden and you can basically control any enemy in Legend just with those 2 moves infinitely for the entire map ; or just run some stamina regen.

I have to agree here that I only take the sweep, and the 2 hit is too situational or too dangerous to use in most situations.

That wouldn’t change a thing. That 'd be gimmicky, honestly how often do you stand in globadier poison cloud ? Sure it’s good to have when that happens, but I usually run to his face and smack him with my sword so at worst the poison is between my team and I and I have to wait it out anyway.

I like the idea of some extra mobility on him though, the 5% seems a bit on the lower end. A charge would be nice, and it would fit the character ; but quite unoriginal. I did expect something with a horse though tbh, so why not ?

Can you guys figure out how to read one of these days so we can have an adequate discussion, once again for those in the back I suppose. No one is really advocating buffing GK, he is just by comparison weaker to similar careers, so is GK just right, or is he under-tuned, or are a large number of careers over-tuned, thats the question this brings up.

Or huntsman, slayer, zealot, BH… Too many careers are just actively better at anything GK brings to the table, once again im not saying buff GK persay, its just he isn’t special. Also once you get to weave 61ish (cata 3 start), it starts to become really apparent how much better other careers could be. Sure GK “can” be fine but really he brings in nothing exciting or “that” useful.

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Thats not what squishy means. He has 0 mitigation, so what people are saying is in anything cata+ a lot of heavy frontlines can take a hit with some form of mitigation, GK doesn’t have this outside of stoicism refunding THP, for damage which is irrelevant if you are getting 1 shot.

I agree with you mostly, but currently, GK is the undisputed king of Chamon weaves. The ultimate hit trader with the Two Handed Hammer + Stoicism.

yeah the 2h hammer changes have given him a decent AA boost.

I didn’t address it because it’s a strawman. I didn’t say that.

And in a way I did respond to it:

So do I. Not upwards.

You’re paying for the service they’re providing. You’re paying for extra content.

The mindset of paying a little extra means you should be OP in games has cosistently proven to screw up balance. If you want to be OP, play him on lower difficulties.

Ok, so most people would argue that he’s actually really good for new players, because he’s easier to deal a lot of damage on compared to other DPS who require headshots or more aim with Ults.

I would use ‘skill floor’ to describe it, but when researching it some time ago low and high skillfloor seem to have been muddled by different communities, making it hard to know which to use.

He’s basically a lot easier than other DPS, and less situational. E.g. Merc needs Crits and 3 enemies hit in a row to get his full Power, while GK’s Ult can kill 2-3 Elites per time with a button press.

You’ve provided no evidence for it being badly designed.

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Grail Knight being weak is news to me honestly, he is ridicilously strong and makes runs really easy.
What else do you need honestly than what he already has?
He is perfectly fine at what he is a Melee Power House that can deal with mass elites easily and trivialise bosses.
His ult has an AOE Push that pushes enemies in it’s near vicinity away from you.
So you are telling me you can’t even dodge anymore in order to avoid hits then.

I wish people would invest more time into understanding certain characters/classes before suggesting changes.

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I honestly think GK is balanced as is (except for maybe insta kill on crit? Even though highly inconsistent). I don’t see much problem with the ult given it’s range, casting delay and GK’s general lack of movement abilities.
And I have no idea where people get the idea he trivilizes bosses. Even when specced for double ult, the damage really isn’t that high against a boss and can be reasonably matched by weapons. It’s like people are forgetting careers such as shade, huntsman or bounty hunter exist.

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First of all nor Shade neither BH where discussed here.
Secondly he does trivialise bosses, there is more to boss killing than being able to kill it with your Invis ult or just stunlock him into oblivion with BH.

Trivialising bosses for me means, anything that doesn’t require much dodge dancing or in place kiting and doesn’t demand full focus in order to do so and let’s you kill a boss in under a minute Solo.
GK also let’s you ledge bosses easily without a grenade so he does trivialise bosses in that sense

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