Ganjii's dumb concern about ranged meta

In this beta I feel it’s important to talk about elephants in rooms (which is why you bring a Handgun). Ranged meta.

Let’s get something straight before I rant. I enjoy playing ranged careers and weapons. I feel ranged combat can exist without infinite ammo career talents and weapon traits that gives ammo.

So what is the problems/issues currently live and in the beta?
There are certain career talents/weapon traits that causes infinite ammo, the “offenders” are;
Grugni’s Cunning, increases ammunition restored by Survivalist caches to 30%. This makes every single ranged weapon (in my opinion) abuse-able. Any ranged weapon becomes spam-able and kills elites and ranged specials much faster. A good weapon that is very strong with infinite ammo is Grugderaker. I love the way the weapon feels and how it currently is balanced, but it becomes insane with infinite ammo and your damage increases drastically.
Kurnous Reward, Killing a special or elite enemy with Trueflight Volley restores 30% ammunition. This is just insane with hagbane short bow on any difficulty, the weapon is by design very strong and with infinite ammo it quickly becomes a monster for stagger/control, special killing and just raw damage combined with certain damage weapon traits. Same goes for swift bow and with the scrounger weapon trait, you gain so much ammo you can hold down the left click attack the entire match and make it not fun for people that want to engage in the melee combat .
So BH is a odd ball here. so I like guaranteed ranged critical, but we run in to an issue with scrounger and again infinite ammo on certain ranged weapons. Volley crossbow right now is a very strong ranged weapon against hordes, with a high ammo pool. Right now I would call it a pseudo shotgun like Blunderbuss or Gruderaker. You can shoot into the horde, get ammo from scrounger (quite a large amount due to the high ammo total) and reload with the talent Duty’s Gift. Repeat for infinite shotgun on the right click.

My opinion right now is that these careers can make the game not fun for some players by killing everything ranged before any of them come close enough to be hit. To me this (my opinion) a melee focused hack and slash, that rewards learning how to fight optimal in melee combat.
What can we can suggest as changes?

Number tweaks is one way. change the ammo percentage on some career talents to tune down spam.
Rework Conservative shooter. It would be a very big change to ranged combat. A way conservative shooter could be changed is making it so every 3rd or 2nd ammo doesn’t get used, just to increase ammo mindfulness.
Scrounger rework?

Ty for reading my rant.

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While I kind of agree in theory, the whole niche of horde clear ranged weapons kind of falls apart without ammo sustain. My impression here is that you think such roles shouldn’t exist for ranged weapons, but in that case please tell me how we balance all the current ranged weapons we have if the only role they’re allowed to fill is special/elite killing? I think the niche of horde clearing needs to exist for the sake of weapon variety, and for this niche to exist at all it needs a decent amount of ammo sustain, otherwise it just can’t do its job at all and fails to be an option at all on higher difficulties.

How do you figure this? It can’t even cleave through a single Marauder, have you tried it out on Cata? @Sleezy made a post a while back comparing its horde clear to other horde clear weapons like shotguns and fireball staff on Cata, and its clear rate is just abysmal. Infinite ammo doesn’t matter if the cleave and damage output is too low to be of any use, and then there’s the reload time which, even after being buffed is multiple times longer than any other ranged weapon. I’ve been trialling different BH builds in Cata with bots pretty obsessively during the beta, and I honestly think the Volley bow is a borderline meme pick at the moment. It looks alright enough on Legend because there’s just generally much less enemies and it actually kills horde enemies in one hit, so its clear rate is much better there.

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The horde clearing niche can exist without infinite ammo on shotguns. With the old blunderbuss huntsman you had to play around your ultimate to save ammo mostly so you couldnt’ spam, and you still had alot of blunder uptime.

Ranged weapons can have their niche in my opinion, but when they become abuseable (hagbane), that’s wrong. Being able to kill elites easily but not being able to mindlessly spam is still an elite killing niche, being able to kill big packs of unarmoured or trash is still a niche, this doesn’t mean it should be spammable or have 100% uptime. For a game where melee is so great and fun, why do we have careers that can run around with their ranged weapons out almost 100% of the time and aren’t forced into melee whatsoever.
For example: hagbane using Bloodshot, on normal cata and especially legend you never have to use it to conserve ammo, which is just dumb. Kurneos reward gives you so much ammo back on such a low cooldown that nobody bothers.

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I think most people, myself included, would agree Kurnous on WS takes ammo sustain too far. What do you see as the other offenders here currently?

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  • Kurneous reward
  • Pyro with temp hp and like any staff, mostly fireball, conflag.
  • Bh crossy scrounger
  • Didn’t play current Huntsman yet, but probably alot of builds there aswell
  • grudgeraker with 30% ammo

Probably missed a few but i think i got all. Mostly the infinite ammo ones.

I’m not against ranged careers, as i love pyro myself and i have 400 levels on her. Just the spamming i think is not in it’s place here. My idea is that you get forced into melee a bit more, not only when you get overwhelmed and have to kite back, but engage in melee combat.

Edit: nerfing the things that allow them to spam the way they do would be the best solution i feel not the weapons itself but i’m not sure, like pyro temphp, 30% ammo rv, etc…

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In Vermintide 1 it was still possible to spam with infinite ammo but it was a lot more conditional; relying on scavenger procs and haste procs

Note: scavenger would often take up a slot on melee traits that would’ve otherwise been dedicating to enhancing melee so there’s a trade-off there and haste was only viable on certain weapons such as repeater handgun, drakefire pistols etc.

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Man I honestly wish Blessed Shots was disentangled from crits. It’s feast or famine for BH, all depending on whether or not you run Scrounger. Now HS has a similar problem but with CS instead. I really wish they’d smooth out both ends of the spectrum.

How do you feel about Scrounger swift on WS or HM? Gets a pretty huge effective ammo pool.

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kinda wish they had methods of generating ammo that wasn’t tied to a trait but wasn’t so constant that you didn’t need to worry about ammo management at all

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Precisely. Scrounger BH right now is too much ammo, but any other ranged trait ends up with too little ammo. It’s an uncomfortable balance that benefits nobody, least of all build variety.

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This is what I mean when I say balancing ranged careers is tricky. It’s hard to please everybody.

Why play a limited ranged career when you could just play a melee career that is more often than not, safer, stronger and offers more utility/support. e.g WHC over BH.

Currently ranged careers have problems, mainly coaxed talent choices or stuck between two extremes.
e.g Taking Grungni’s cunning on RV can lead to surplus amounts of ammo, taking ales leaves you running dry. Waystalker has a similar problem with Kurnous’ Reward outside of longbow

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I don’t have any experience with swiftbow and scrounger together, so i don’t really know.

Yes i agree. Ofcourse when i say i don’t like ranged to be able to spam and not worry about ammo, that’s just one side. I understand there are plenty of ‘safe’ melee careers which are insanely strong, or ranged careers which have such abysmal melee options that a hybrid would not really work in the current state of the game.

Removing temp hp on pyro for example, could fix her spam issue to a certain degree, but then you can have the same again when combined with a mercenary.
Or like nerfing kurneous reward but then using the 30% ammo pouches on rv to enable waystalker again.

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it’s A LOT of ammo but it’s one of those scenarios where you’ll never go through enough shots to feel like it’s super OP compared to anything that’s already on offer

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I see. I assume swiftbow is underwhelming on HM even if she can spam 100% of the time. It’s difficult, as i’m advocating against spamming ranged, but for swiftbow on hm it’s damage is probably so low that i wouldn’t mind if you are avle to spam.

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I think this would lead to certain careers having higher pick rates over another or reliance/coaxed choices again.

Ranged spam has been dialed down a lot since launch, I think it might be better to look how ammunition is recovered rather than how much.

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Purely hypotectical.

Lets assume no other career gives temp hp and that they remove temp hp on pyro.
It would make alot of players mad, as the community already views pyro as weak.
It would make her unable to spam as much as she currently can. She would still be able to spam alot more due to ‘vent on ult’ and still have high uptime on ranged. It would just reduce her uptime.

I’m not saying pyro in general is overpowered, just her having acces to insane ranged options and then being able to spam that weapon. That is too strong

And i know if you changed it now without addressing everything else, players will just gravitate towards the other insane options.

wait really?
are they high?

Also, deathly dissipation and heat sink are a thing so she still has a lot of spam potential, it’s just conditional

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It’s mostly the ‘mindless’ i have an issue with. If players had to pay attention to procs or have to do something in melee first, that would be much nicer imo.

Currently it’s just spam>ult>spam, or spam>get all ammo back on trait>spam. Spam>pick pouch>spam.

Don’t get me wrong the melee reset, repeater alt fire deleter was a strong build but atleast it required some input

Edit: this also answers your last comment a bit :). And yes she can still spam and i’m probably exagerating that community views her as weak, but i have seen players claiming that (although that doesn’t mean much). Deathly dissapation is a bit more fine in my eyes, still super strong tho.

Edit: for example: i enjoy playing pyro with the talent that increases dmg at high overcharge and use the crit trait, and spam untill i hit the limit, then tap vent, repeat so i have constant uptime. It’s probably weaker then deathly dissapation but i enjoy it as i have to pay attention a bit

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yeah I like deathly since it’s super strong when it procs but it doesn’t have super high uptime unless you’re getting absolutely spammed with specials throughout a run and the pyro manages to pick up most of them

they are wrong and I will have their dongliz mounted on my wall

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Yea the other issue is that if you make every ranged career have conditional procs, like killing elites or specials, is that everyone will want to kill those first for their talent procs, which can also bring it’s own issues with it.

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