Flinching

Edit: I regret making this post or ever supporting the idea. I hope the new flinch change gets reverted.

Any light attack regardless of stagger strength will always stagger horde enemies. Elites are staggered by crits and headshots very easily. They have resistance to this during some animations like overheads.

A result of this is that a Rapier can stagger lock a group of elites while kitting just by using light attacks and headshotting.

My Own Suggestions:

  • Changing this so that it at least requires a crit + a headshot for low stagger strength weapons to stagger elites during normal attacks could help alleviate this problem.

  • Making all tier two horde infantry resistant to stagger from low stagger weapons. E.g. Dual Daggers/Rapier only staggering Marauders with heavy attacks, light headshots (not bodyshots), crits or pushes would work as well.

  • If my understanding is correct, most weapons have a cleave limit for damage and stagger. The Two Handed Hammer has a higher stagger cleave limit than it does for damage cleave. This would logically mean that it would be safer against a pure horde than a weapon like the Greatsword, which has a very high damage cleave limit but lower stagger cleave limit. Because of flinching, the Greatsword will stagger all of the horde enemies it hits anyway. If this is removed, this issue is fixed.

What are everyone else’s thoughts?

(Credit to Adelion for the idea of topic on enemy flinching)

Edit: Here are my new thoughts:

Do the above, or make it so that none of these changes are true for anyone using Riposte on WHC.

4 Likes

Mostly copy&paste from another thread:

I am completely in favour of removing it or toning it down to get closer to the original 2.0 feeling again and giving actual crowd control weapons more significance.

However, it was specifically introduced with 2.0.5 because people complained that they can’t yolo solo hordes anymore with fast slashing weapons. So, toning down the mechanic would be a serious nerf to these weapons (which I am still in favour of).

I think the effect could actually be tied to the Opportunist trait to some degree. In my opinion it is already good but it may elevate it in the eyes of other people. It would Keep this playstyle “alive” for sacrificing other traits.

6 Likes

Flinching definately needs to be toned down, the optimal build for nearly every career is raw attack speed, because if you spam fast enough into a crowd you can win without thinking.

9 Likes

Regarding elites I largely agree. For horde enemies I really don’t know. I don’t think there’s any way to make a change like that without massive backlash. As someone else mentioned attack speed plays into this issue somewhat, and I would much prefer swift slaying and the like got looked at before we jump down this rabbit hole.

Food for thought, and I learned a few things from the post. Never really clicked just how much crits affect stagger, but it completely checks out, and definitely steals some of the heavy stagger weapons’ thunder.

1 Like

Yep, that will happen. But then again, anything FS makes will get backlash from this special part of the community.

Because that wouldn’t receive massive backlash? But yea, there is once again another Swift Slaying thread in the normal Vermintide 2 Feedback Forum.

1 Like

For sure, and I get your point, just wanted to outline my own priorities for what needs to be looked at. I do think swift slaying is a little more immediately problematic than flinching. Not trying to discourage conversation on the main topic. I have no other coherent thoughts on the main topic so I will duck out for now.

I’m not in favor of nerfing our toolkit in any way.

2 Likes

Flinching is not a tool. Weapons are toolkits. This is a mechanic of the game.

The “toolkit” is how we interact with the game, and flinching is one way in which we interact. I don’t want to see anything nerfed.

2 Likes

Well we’d be buffing them actually. So that’s good, right?

I would advocate for simply removing it all together. Of course, I think you get bonus stagger power for hitting the head and/or critting (not really sure if it lowers stagger resist of enemy or increases stagger power). This mechanic is fine. I just want to remove any mechanic that causes attacks to completely ignore the stagger resist of a given enemy.

2 Likes

I would approach thoses options very carefully, as it’s pretty important to keep fun before keeping balance on that particular topic.
This is also a matter of feeling, and if people don’t like fighting horde at all because of a lack of stagger, it will severely impact the experience of the less cautious players.
Hordes are meant (in V2) to be an hindrance when combined to other threats. It should probably not become its own threat “alone”.
The “sponge” issue during WoM was pretty real, and really made the game sluggish.

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The sponge issue was due to player skill. I remember wiping in cata some with the people I played DWONS with. Or at least a couple of them. It was very difficult to adjust to a whole new meta without knowing what the correct properties were while also learning completely new mechanics. This caused players to play overly cautious and lowered dps. Now, from what I’ve experienced, players have clearly caught up to the new mechanics and are just galloping through Cata. It’s not challenging enough to be fun imo.

2 Likes
  1. The sponge issue was not only due to player skill, hp were toned down (a lot) and more stagger options were made available.
  2. There’s also a feeling issue. As the game do use a lot of horde, if they take too much time, the length becomes a bit an issue.
  3. There’s probably a lot of others things that could be done in order to make cata challenging, first that comes to mind is more options for twitch mode.
    Slowing the game is probably not a good one.
3 Likes

Removing the flinch mechanic wouldn’t slow the game down in any meaningful way. It just makes enemies more dangerous.

Edit: were you talking about the WoM beta?

And therefore require more dodging, block, and kite, and less killing. Which does impact the length.
Edit: Yes, because if we come back on the flinching mechanic it would be an issue as seen during WoM beta.

1 Like

Minimally, at best. Being able to maintain uptime is purely an issue of player skill. If players don’t already have the skill, they will quickly develop it once the new mechanics are introduced. The fact is, players just become as good as the content requires them to be. It’s been that way In every iteration of the game. Once players have mastered a set of mechanics, it’s time for a change or the game will die.

4 Likes

I’m usually not against changes. As pointed out in others topics. I’m against a change of rythm. It’s a bit more abstract but it should stay the same ‘feeling’ of visceral combat you usually have. Which mean that every change of meta is a good thing as long as it keep the pacing a player can have.

Yeah players will adapt to change and become better. We saw that on weaves. That doesn’t really mean players like weaves more than twitch mode for example.

2 Likes

And you could argue that since flinch was a mechanic introduced in early 2.0, we’d be returning to more traditional V2 gameplay. It’s also just a bad mechanic that really devalues elites and makes controlling hordes way too easy. It’s probably the biggest individual mechanic that lets you deal with any difficulty.

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Not really a great example. Weaves have never required mechanical improvements. They are beaten through some form of mechanic cheesing or something of the like. Not a lot of skill involved. No offense to weavers of course.

2 Likes
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