Executioner Sword and Spear: a nerf was not needed

As we can read in Beta thread, Fatshark nerfed these weapons because they were the most used… it was true, but let me do one question: they were so used because “overpower”, or because the other weapons were dull?

Now, none has an objective answer… and, for this reason, I say: “Let’s wait”.

2h Sword, 2h Hammer and 1h Mace have been buffed… so, before nerfing Exe and Spear, let’s see if they sill steal other weapons’ space.

My opinion is that, specially after this beta’s buff, all these weapons (Exe, Spear, 2h Sword, 2h Hammer, 1h Mace) have pro and cons, advantages and disadvantages… so none nerf is needed.

Let me do a couple of example (with Exe and Spear I mean PRE-nerf version):

  • Other weapons” vs Executioner Sword:

    • 2h Hammer: much more stagger/control and more dps vs armors;

    • 2h Sword: much more efficiency vs groups of elites/mixed hordes and more control;

    • Halberd: more versatile, higher pure dps.

  • Other weapons” vs Spear:

    • 2h Hammer: more stagger and much more dps vs armors;

    • 2h Sword: much more dps vs hordes and groups of elites;

    • Halberd: more dps vs hordes and vs armors;

    • 1h Mace: higher mobility, more dps vs armors and the possibility to stagger with light attacks.

Moreover, already in live version, both Exe Sword (low mobility, survivability, bad under pressure) and Spear (bad armor damage, “meh” dps vs hordes, needs stamina to stagger), have they clear disadvantages.

P.S: at last I would like to remember that Spear was very important to Huntsman… a career that, in my opinion, really needs that help. Reducing Spear’s stamina prevents (not entirely, of course) to Huntsman to use it like a defensive weapon.

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The Executioner Sword definetely justified a nerf, not only from pickrate but also from a gameplay perspective. The Executioner Sword is a heavy hitter and a great horde clear weapon which even under pressure and with mixed in elites/armored units still performs well. This goes especially for Mercenary were the weapon is literally free from weaknesses but it also worked wonder on Foot Knight. Haven’t used it on Huntsman though.

So like explained the nerf is more than justified as the weapon on live mode is unbalanced. So what were the choices for the nerf?

  • Reduce it heavy hitter quality
  • Reduce it horde clear quality

As Velsix said, another potential change would have been to remove the crit chance and/or reduce the damage for the charge attack. It would reduce the heavy hitter characteristic of the weapon. Fatshark went with the other option and reduced horde clear quality. And looking at Kruber’s melee arsenal, I think the change makes a bit more sense. Kruber has multiple weapons which are either very good versus (mixed) hordes or outright specialize in fighting them. However, he has very few heavy hitter weapons. I think the idea here is to put the Executioner Sword in a similar niche than the Warpick. Anyway, a nerf of any kind was justified.

Also, first buffing and then nerfing is a terrible idea from gaming psychology perspective. These things have ALWAYS be done hand in hand. Because like this the fall-out from nerfing will be cushioned. Otherwise you will have people crying again over nerfs which are hardly noticeable.

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I dont really understand how anyone who played a bit of Executioners on anyone that is not a cleave enhancing fancy feathered hats wearing sellsword could call for a nerf.
No dodge distance to speak off, two effective dodges, while getting stuck on every light hit into a wave even at head hight.

With the recent addition of the Longsword and the changes to the Halberd and Hammer this seems even more questionable. Iam kind of tired that Weapons that just work are getting nerfed into meh status, just because they where the only actual weapons that did their duty. Halberd had that happen to itself a good while back.

Especially the nerf to attack speed again mostly hits careers that already struggle hard with the Executioners.

The Spear nerf just makes me, someone who already didnt like the spear alot on Huntsman, question why I would even take it over the Longsword, or even Mace and Sword. Both have better defensive values and deal with armored targets quicker, while having great wave clear.

The whole Rebalance mod was about getting every other weapon into a competitive state with each other, not about ramping every meh weapon to nice values and demoting nice weapon to meh status.

It really is annoying. Elgi Duals “just” lost the hidden crit modifiers on some attacks, while the Executioners got nearly slaughtered for no real reason but “it was overused”.

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I definitely share your opinion on executioner, it was not in need of a nerf and only saw so much play due to Kruber’s other options being lackluster.

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It doesnt. Two effective dodges make you fall victim to running attacks. There is no linesman values on the lights, so most hits get stuck on even just marauder waves. The only Career that could make effective use out of it is Merc, because he enhances Attack Speed, Cleave and Dodge range via Passives and Talents. On every other career Executioners is performs poor against waves.
The nerfs basically killed it as a weapon to even consider on Huntsman and make it unbelievably frustrating on Knight.

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We have different experiences considering Foot Knight, but that is okay. Also, it was never a weapon really meant for Huntsman which is okay too. It still performs top level on both Mercenary and Grail Knight and still good on Foot Knight.

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As written I don’t think that Exe had not weak points. And I already explained what they are. But, sure, we know we almost have opposite opinions.

And I really disagree about the fact that “first buffing and only after nerfing” is a bad idea. Rather it’s very important to proceed step by step. Becuase, a simultaneous nerf to “x” + buff to “y”, is like a double buff or a double nerf… and this can mean to create a large separation from two weapons. Like a “too high” jump.

Indeed, once again in my opinion, 2h Sword and 2h Hammer’s buff are pretty enough to give them clear advantages than Exe.

I agree with you… indeed we all know what is happened to Halberd since that old nerf. Halberd is almost disappeared from the game.

I agree! Indeed I was just reading your nice thread.

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Doesnt Huntsman have THP on melee Killing blows? Doesnt he have Smiter? Isnt there a Talent that enhances Headhit damage? No defensive or attack speed enhancing to speak of, apart from 5% extra crit which makes it easier to activate SS. But it is a great weapon for GK. Sure.

Its not a good weapon for FK and never was. It only saw some use because the atrocious wave clear the Executioners delivered was just as bad as Halberds with the addition of the Elites not needing stamina to be dealt with quickly. Thats why it still saw alot of maps.

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It was needed. They were overperforming.

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I agree. Nerf was needed. IMHO it is/was one of the strongest melee weapons in the game.
Once you learned to get around some of the mobility issues with it it’s just a DPS monster that can deal with pretty much everything.

Can’t comment on spear. Hardly ever used it.

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Well, in my opinion I written some objective Exe’s weak points and where other weapons are better… but sure, everyone has his ideas.

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Executioner and Tsugor Spear (but also some other weapons, I’m going to write a thread) didn’t need a nerf. They covered a precise job, with positive and negative sides.

For this reason I prefer the old, good Full Weapon Rebalance mod (yep, @Incandescent @Sleezy, I’m spamming your mod everywhere).

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The nerf Tuskgor spear received is minor, and it still has incredible innate BCR on par with shields. I’m also probably on the side that executioner needed a speed nerf, it doesn’t break the weapon and characterises it more as a slow and heavy hitting weapon.

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This keeps being repeated and over emphasized. The community told them a two-fold problem: Ex-sword too gud everything else bad.

And they basically said, “Yeah, you must be right. Nearly everyone is using ex-sword”

Executioners Sword’s power preceded player skill. One can say its mobility was a sufficient enough weakness, but I disagree because all four of Kruber’s classes have talents and passives that work around ex-sword’s weaknesses quite efficiently. Mercenary: high speed, high cleave, crit. Huntsman: crit, can leave when he wants to. Footknight: high speed. Grail Knight: just switches to another weapon.

With a little practice playing around its mobility, it was genuinely a forgiving weapon with a huge amount of dps. There’s just no legitimate reason to say no to being a lawnmower that destroys elites. One could also argue it doesn’t handle pressure well, but honestly, if the pressure is the Chaos Warrior waves in FoW, there’s not many weapons that should be able to handle that.

Requiring Kruber’s highest dps weapon to have a skill gate to it is not entirely unreasonable for it (when everything else is getting pretty extreme buffs).

That’s my rant, y’all stay hydrated today.

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I think if they were gonna nerf spear they should’ve removed the BCR rather than the stamina

but otherwise yeah that weapon did need some slight toning down in that regard.

Executioner I’m on the fence about, I don’t really think it needed the change but the 10% crit on the third light should help lighten that speed nerf

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Sorry if I intrude, but I feel Exe has two jobs:

  1. heavy hitting for elites;
  2. clearing low/medium density hordes (while 2H Sword high density)… penalized from the nerf.

Moreover 8.5% are “huge” numbers.

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Now, as I already said to another user, I know we have different ideas… but let me say one thing.

Speaking for the weapon itself, yep, the nerf ins’t so destructive… but for Huntsman, imho, it’s a very big problem.

Huntsman really needed Spear as defensive weapon… now, with the stamina nerfed, Spear is more or less another “Merc weapon”.

Sure, it can still be used as Huntsman, but it hasn’t the same synergy.

I just used that phrase to “open” the speech… but I clearly wrote why (imho) Executioner (and Spear) doesn’t overshadow the other weapons (specially after the buff!).

Sure, Merc or FK can “cover” a little Exe’s disadvantages… but this happens with 2h Hammer or 2h Sword too!

You speak about “highest” dps… But, apart that dps aren’t everything (there are other factors like stagger), dealing mixed/high density hordes, 2h Sword has a much higher dps!

Anyway, I repeat, I’m just explaining my poin of view.

Yeah I agree actually. It makes a lot more sense for the spear to have stamina rather than BCR, stamina lets it push more and helps with crowd control, and BCR is very uncharacteristic for what looks like a flimsy wooden stick. No other spear or polearm weapon has innate BCR, so why tuskgor spear, plus the extra stamina on top of that? Give extra stamina to tuskgor and elf spear, remove BCR from tuskgor spear.

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But it literally is still a good defensive weapon. It has innate BCR on par with shields which gives it massive blocking, it has 180 degree push/block angle which is big, wider pushes, great crowd control with it’s sweep attacks (why is a spear so focused on sweeps and crowd control of all things? Well whatever), and it still has much better dodge than something like executioner. It’s literally still excellent in that regard, to say that a small nerf to stamina makes it “another Mercenary weapon” is extremely hyperbolic.
Like how many other weapons are better at defense than tuskgor spear? In before “no I don’t agree”, at least explain why you think that 1 stamina shield was so crucial to tuskgor and what it actually does to the weapon, instead of just saying it transforms the weapon into “just another Mercenary weapon”.
And who actually says Huntsman “needs” spear? I like using 1h sword and 1h mace, even before the beta patch, cause both of those weapons have great dodge and good defensive stats which match well with Huntsman, plus the tHP generation is good. Like, who says Huntsman has to exclusively use tuskgor spear? Why?

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I’m not saying now it’s trash… but I still think it was more balanced with 4 stamina. Sure, advantages you written are good, but now many weapons have equally good qualities.

And this is another problem. Krub has only few defesnive weapons (shields apart, but it’s another gameplay)… Mace is a good example. And now it has many advantages than Spear: more stamina (even wihtout the nerf to Spear), higher armor damage, more mobility, stagger without consume stamina and with fast attacks…

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