Interested to see what the choice is in terms of the endgame scorecards. I know green circle chasers weren’t very popular and some might say were an unhealthy element of the game.
Keen to see the direction fatsharks takes this. Effective team play is a difficult thing to quantify.
I really hope they add other information, like how much people benefitted from your Stagger, or damage increases on enemies. Using green circles to see the strength of your build isn’t a bad thing, and it should be able to be used to see how much you benefit your team too.
Absolutely, I think in its current version they are metrics that favour solely dps rather than team play. I like the idea of a stagger metric. More stuff like this I think would be welcomed by many
That board rewards shitty gameplay. I’d either like to see it removed entirely or a new version of it that recognizes way more team work play.
Scoreboards do not matter, because they rarely show actual experience and teamplay. Good players recognize other good players by how the react during different situations and how they behave as a member of the team.
Example:
An Ironbreaker uses taunt on a Chaos Patrol and brings them into a position where they dont face the team, so the team can kill it fast and efficiently from behind. That is good teamplay that wont be shown on the scoreboard.
Now another Ironbreaker who uses his shield to constantly stagger trash instead of killing it. Doesnt help, because all he does is wasting time until another teammember kills the trash, but his actions would be shown on the scoreboard for stagger.
Another example:
Your team comes to a “point of no return” and the first player reaching it waits and makes sure that his team is crossing the point together, so no one is left behind. That is a good teamplayer, but its not shown on the scoreboard.
Now we have the typical elf that runs forward without reacting to the team at all, but still kills a significant amount of enemies. That one doesnt wait and is the first and only one that crosses the point of no return, stressing out the other players who also just cross without looking and then they see how the last member got hit by a disabler on the other side, because he didnt cross yet. Thats not good teamplay, even though the elf will certainly have all the green circles.
Scoreboards simply dont matter.
well i think if they really wanted to, there would be a way to implement a scoring system that is focused around Teamplay
but then again is that necessary?
after all scoring something main appeal is comparing, and the desire to be better as someone else/or judge someone, wich is an inherently egocentric mindset that does more harm to Teamplay than it helps, EVEN IF the shown statistics are “Teamplay stats”
for example, a logical Teamplay stat (imo) would be cohesion, how much does a player wander astray from the team,
pretty much shunned by the community to rush ahead or waste a lot of time checking way too many loot spots slacking behind etc you know what i mean,
but boiling something like this down to a number is contra intuitive, there many scenarios where breaking cohesion is better than sticking together and sometimes its even the only choice,
so judging someone solely based on an arbitrary number that happens to be the highest on an player and god forbids he is playing elf?!
so in the end both solo oriented and Teamplay oriented scoring are two halves of the same coin really, egocentric arbitrary numbers with no value
You realise you can have good teamplay AND gauge how good your build is right?
Literally half of the fun in this game is testing builds to see if you can make interesting and still useful ones. One of the ways you do this is by looking at how well different playstyles perform.
It also contributes to discussion on whether or not things are overpowered. E.g. a well known true solo player topping damage on something compared to one million different random people topping damage on BW or Zealot.
We should be asking for more information not less, so we understand what effect our build is having, if any at all.
E.g. How much damage is my Bulwark granting? Does Heroic Intervention do anything at all? Is CDR Ult worth using on Merc? How much am I blocking? Was running Parry worthwhile? How many Staggers happened because of Opportunist?
Sorry if that doesn’t fit your tirade about people being ego maniacs though.
If you understand all of the builds being played, in a proper group, you can use them for exactly that. E.g. no Boss killer, no Special killer, no Horde killer.
You can also deduce if a build is useful for one thing or another. E.g. Can Bleed build SoTT be used to replace an AoE DPS? Does Handgun kill enough Elites to reduce the need for one persons build to be so heavily armoured/single target? Does Volley Crossbow deal decent Boss damage?
If you get people running off alone, just kick and block them. I have at least 50 people who did that blocked. The game is way more enjoyable when people don’t run off alone and die. It has nothing to do with the scorecard. It’s usually down to builds being capable of playing aggresively solo in the first place, or playing too low of a difficulty.
Engi can bunker solo against super high Cata+ density, but it can’t afford to get hit like Zealot/Slayer/GK/Shade/BW (the main culprits for running off solo in my experience) can.
A good way to counter this is to play something with a high amount of long range ammo, and pull all of the far off roamers, so that your group has something to fight. Then people don’t need to run off.
Everything you mentioned comes with experience though, so there is still no need for a scoreboard. I agree that more detailed informations about skills, talents and overwall character strength is needed, but that has nothing to do with the scoreboard either.
Scoreboards also dont help when testing out builds or to determine how strong or overpowered a build is. That again has something to do with experience or testing out stuff in detail, like i did with Moonbow when it released and then opened a thread here proving with numbers that the weapon was overpowered. No scoreboard needed at all.
Cedric is certainly right. The primary factor of a scoreboard is toxicity, either by pushing your own ego or by diminishig the contribution of others. I have seen all of that happening in random groups, because people just lacked experience. None of the other veteran players i have befriended throughout my past journey have given a damn about the scoreboard either, because it just doesnt matter.
Saying you want more information and then asking for less, instead of more, is a contradiction.
I gave a multitude of examples of how it can be used. I’ve tested builds and used the scorecard to help for almost all of the builds I’ve made.
Testing things by hitting enemies standing still in the keep isn’t properly testing the build. The example you gave of Moonbow being an outlier is an exception to the rule in terms of playstyle and damage, due to the way it works as well.
I’d also say that in terms of proving OP versatility, such as BW or Zealot, it’s a great help.
There’s things like Parry, which it would be incredibly beneficial to see at the end of the match, to see if it’s even worth using. Headshot rate, ammo regained from certain interactions, etc.
Parry would actually be pretty fun. I’d love to see how much damage I stopped when I blocked 4 overheads in a Chaos Patrol.
Damage taken is a huge indicator of how well you’re playing too.
I mean, remember when people was saying Grail Knight was weak when he first came out ( 
)and directly mentioned his Quest Passives? Imagine if you could just see how much they benefitted the team throughout the match.
That’s fine, me and my friends have used it to influence our builds and our comp.
I don’t see a reason to get rid of such a valuable tool, which should be added on to, because a tiny minority of players want green circles.
It would just be hurting the non-toxic people and premades who just want to make optimal builds.
The actual only downsides to the scorecard for me is that it doesn’t show benefits to team from support, so people assume it’s useless or don’t understand how to use it. E.g. Shield Staggers, and stacking with the person who’s doing them.
Scoreboards are not reliable informations. What i am talking about are detailed informations about talents, skills and character strength. Something you can reliably look up in the keep and then base your build around it.
A typical run is random in regard to how many and what enemies will spawn and the clearing speed factos into that as well. Its not reliable information at all. There are reasons why modded realm is used for proper testing, where you can spawn specific enemies and test out stuff on them.
Your examples on how to use the scoreboard are simply not useful. No experienced player would ever use the scoreboard to determine anything in regard to gameplay. An experienced player can immediately see during gameplay what is strong and what not. Random numbers on the scoreboard dont help at all, especially if you dont play with other people who have the exact same skill as you and even then its not a reliable source of information.
Please explain to me how exactly a scoreboard influenced your builds? Because i know which weapons are good against what and its never really a surprise when i saw that i excelled against the enemies i built for. A detailed explanation on how the random numbers could be used, if you dont mind. Because i tested out the scoreboard with veterans and i know what information it gives.
It literally would be reliable information to see how much Stagger/THP/etc you generate and whether the build is worth it though.
If I generate Stagger that ends up helping my team do 2% total more damage, it might not be worth it, but if I help them do 10%, it’s a different story.
You could directly see that from the damage numbers and the number of ‘Stagger damage increase’ if they added that.
The same way if you gauge your uptime on a Boss, the amount of time it took to die and the damage the scorecard says you dealt, you can see if a Boss build is worthwhile or not. Due to a potential 4 people in the match hitting the Boss during the fight.
Yeah, and if you see a lot of one type of enemy, and you used a playstyle against that enemy that worked with your build, you can see if it was worthwhile.
Testing in an actual match is good, because it allows you to test if a playstyle is viable for building fully in to and how it feels. E.g. 1H Axe for Elf seems like it would be fun to fight Elites with and you could work out breakpoints etc on modded, but when you play an actual match and realise how much of a horrible experience it is, then the true gameplay will give you different feedback.
Are you going for the discredit green circle? There’s quite some irony here, huh.
What constitutes an experienced player to you?
They’re also not random numbers, they’re numbers from the match you just played.
You could play with many different types of people over many different matches. You’re not limited to one scorecard for information.
You’re making very general claims.
Boss damage would be the easiest example.
They’re not actually random numbers. Your attacks have a damage value which is calculated against the health of the enemies you hit. The total amount of that damage you did is what is shown on the scorecard at the end.
You think about how much uptime you had on the Boss, how long it took to kill and then you look at your damage at the end. You can then judge as to whether or not the build is worthwhile for playing as a Boss killer.
E.g. Barrage Hagbane shreds Bosses with a STR Pot, but you then lose out on ammo for other things.
I agree that green circles aren’t completely pointless, but rather that they are heavily dependant on subjective interpretation. They are very focused on raw dps, which is somewhat OK ; after all, the best kind of crowd-control is death.
This is especially evident when playing FootKnight with a shield weapon, or Warrior Priest. You could be the MVP if you play them right but you most likely aren’t getting any of the kill circles. On the other hand, like theppekausen mentioned, I’ve had a few quickplay sessions with an Ironbreaker with axe and shield with zero attack speed, who couldn’t kill anything to save his life and just shield-bashed all day… The scoreboard wasn’t kind to this guy, and rightly so.
But mostly, it just depends on how badly you want those green circles. As a ranged career, are you happy letting your very effective frontliners do their work and mostly look out for elites and specials, or do you whip out your javelins 24/7 ?
The scoreboard, even if it was more team-play oriented (stagger time, bonus damage given, team cohesion etc.), would not mean the same thing to everyone, and you can’t boil down complex situations to a few numbers. I think a lot of people already understand this : in many many hours of QP, hardly anyone ever comments on the scoreboard results.
Man you all are getting super deep about scoreboards.
I just want the scoreboards to recognize different styles of play. So not everyone tries to be dps based so they can feel special cause they have the most green circles.
Just literally want supports to feel loved too, that’s all.
Supports of what though?
Again, the Ironbreaker shield-bashing trash doesnt help and staggering an enemy just for someone else to kill it is semi-optimal at best, especially since the killer can stagger by himself when attacking enemies.
Healing could be an option, but that just supports wasting healing items to get the green circle there.
You just named the reason for the existence scoreboard we are talking about here. Increasing the ego of the player because the scoreboard showed you did something. That isnt needed, the only thing that matters is to finish the map. Experienced players will know what you did during the game, inexperienced players look at the scoreboard. It doesnt matter that you have green circles if you failed proper teamplay.
I included multiple examples in my responses to you.
Those are just support. You could also have indicators for things that only change gameplay for you, like Ammo back from headshots as Huntsman.
Keep ignoring my points and continuing with your hypocritical fallacy though.
You claim green circles are just for egomaniacs, and they’re toxic.
You then claim that ‘experienced players’ know better, to sidestep and not respond to any valid points being made. That’s you actually being toxic.
your only point is that you think the scoreboard is a tool to determine how to build/improve your setup. there isn’t anything to discuss on an opinion
i can get behind your “more information = better” stance but i disagree that stats have to be represented in a forced scoreboard popup, maybe have stats like you describe in a separate list you can look up on demand, of the last 20 games and be able to look up said stats of any player you played with . as long as they are friendslisted and their private settings allow it.
hypercritical? how so?
he is saying that an specific action at a critical moment that wouldn’t show up on any stat can have a greater impact than the entire effort stretched over a lengthy game an “experienced player” would simply have an easier time noticing the importance of said action.
and a scoreboard would never allow for representation of these actual game deciding factors and therefore are obsolete
No. I’ve made multiple points.
You said this and then brought up another point I made. “more information = better”
It’s hypocritical, because he’s claiming a self-declared higher understanding to dismiss clear arguments by myself.
Claiming green circles are for egotistical people and then claiming you’re also an authority to ignore arguments being made is hypocritical and toxic. You’re literally being egotistical by using ‘experienced players’ as an argument.
Something that still hasn’t been defined btw.
Repeating his arguments don’t make mine go away.
then i don’t see them… help me understand what your points are.
but that’s not hypocrisy??? if anything that would be “appeal to authority”.
its not an argument that experienced players have more experience thats just a fact.
i don’t know how you can deny, that with more understanding of a game a player would also have a greater understanding of important actions in said game…
i never claimed that any green circle is for egoistical people or any form of stat for that matter,
i said scoreboards are used to compare yourself with others and sometimes judge others based on their performance, and that the numbers that are displayed or could be displayed are without value because they can’t represent whats important in a match, leaving them only with their egocentric nature intact.
im not only the authority but also judge and executioner on ignoring arguments, whatever that means…
no im not
its a generalizing category its definition comes from the context of the conversation, if he says an experienced player would notice XY, you can automatically assume that an inexperienced player would not, and that you add to the definition until you get a picture, u don’t have to define everything in every conversation
i never adressed anyone directly with my arguments, but somehow you reverted to ad hominem attacks against me, i would welcome you to stop that, its uncalled for.
Scroll up.
It’s both egotistical and toxic, the two things that person used as arguments against scorecards.
Well you’ve responded to a post I made to someone else, and you’re ignoring the points I’ve made once again about it being used to overlook arguments.
Experienced people having opinions isn’t the issue here. Claiming ‘experienced people think this’ while ignoring points made, which also implies the person you’re speaking to isn’t and ‘experienced player’ is both egotistical and toxic and as you pointed out a fallacy.
Again, you’ve both made similar arguments about it and you’re responding to a post addressed to someone else, and now are treating the replies, which are addressing their post as if they’re all directed at your previous posts.
I think both can be addressed by saying:
If the minority of players uses green circles to play in a way that could be deemed egotistical block them and let the rest of us enjoy the scorecard.
It’s also kind of funny that the playstyle of playing for green circles is doing exactly what the person I was responding to said didn’t work. Using the scorecard to change gameplay and builds.
The “You’re” was in the general sense of the person using the argument that the point I was making was about. Not directed directly at you.
You do if it’s your argument against something.
The reason he probably hasn’t is because he doesn’t want the ‘experienced player’ description to encompass me, because he’s using it to discredit my points.
You misunderstood my use of “you’re”, and also you responded to something that wasn’t addressed to you.
“Again, you’ve both made similar arguments about it and you’re responding to a post addressed to someone else, and now are treating the replies, which are addressing their post as if they’re all directed at your previous posts.”
cmon im being genuine here, you wrote alot of stuff with alot of it being convoluted, it would help alot if you actually formulated what your baseline argument is
im stuck at:
both are mostly covered by my argument that you should have a game stat list to view game-play stats separately on demand that you can summon up to view a myriad of vital information. without the need to show comparing player stats after each game.
you seemed fit to ignore this tho.
(if you’re so adamant about your arguments being ignored you should at least see fit to handle other people’s arguments diligently, otherwise you yourself seem like a hypocrite).
i litterally told you in that post that im unaware of your arguments apart from the 2 mentioned, you gave me sassy answer and then try to paint a picture that i purposefully ignore your arguments, im no a time wizard yaknow.
can’t speak for @theppekausen of course, but i don’t think he was trying to exclude you in any capacity.
well can’t argue with that, dunno if i would count that as positive tho.
well most of from that post were answers to things i raised earlier, and then you quoted yourself, so it seemed you were doubling down and redirecting the argument specifically for me.
i was wrong to assume that.