Elven Dual Daggers

  • Removed bonus 10% crit from lights 1 and 2

Everything I’m going to say is about Cataclysm difficulty.
There are many situations where you are kinda surrounded of strong monsters and you don’t have time/space to land the 3th or 4th hit, at most you can only hit twice or heavy attack, then block. (Block -> land at most two light hits -> repeat) or (Block -> heavy attack -> repeat).
Notice I said “Kinda surrounded of strong monsters” that doesn’t mean a full horde of monsters.
You feel heavy in that situation, like you will recieve dmg soon cause all talents/trait are off and seems the only thing you can do is blocking and dodging, so the sooner you trigger the talents/trait up, the better.
Most Kerillians will agree with me that situation happens a lot. When that happen you are praying for that critical hit ASAP. Remember that heavy attack don’t have bonus crit.
Removing light 1 and 2, will nerf the most usefull hit of Dual Daggers, the first one.
Because the first light attack is what you use the most cause you are constantly blocking/pushing/using an item/swaping weapon.
That being said I encourage you to let the bonus crit of ATLEAST the first light attack and remove/nerf the rest if you want, but the first one it’s way too important to remove it.

I thought about some IMO good options, but I don’t know if it must be rounded numbers or not.

  Right now              Option 1             My option             Experimental
Light 1 = 10%   | |   Light 1 = 10%   | |   Light 1 = 10%   | |    Light 1 = 7%
Light 2 = 10%   | |   Light 2 = 0%    | |   Light 2 = 5%    | |    Light 2 = 6%
Light 3 = 10%   | |   Light 3 = 10%   | |   Light 3 = 0%    | |    Light 3 = 7%
Light 4 = 10%   | |   Light 4 = 0%    | |   Light 4 = 5%    | |    Light 4 = 0%
  Total 40%     | |     Total 20%     | |     Total 20%     | |      Total 20%

With the Experimental one you lost the 30% chance you can reach with items, but still have good overall crit chance.
As you see, my examples still respect the 20% nerf, but it would feel way more confortable ingame than with the one you proposed. IMHO would be better to have 10% on the first light then 0% on the rest, rather than 10% on the 3/4. Understand that we’re always mathematically talking. I am not saying that DD will be useless.

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Why is the 10% crit bonus so important on light 1/2?

As I said already:

There are many situations where you are kinda surrounded of monsters and you don’t have time/space to land the 3th or 4th hit, at most you can only hit twice or heavy attack, then block. (Block -> land at most two light hits -> repeat) or (Block -> heavy attack -> repeat).

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Yes i understood the situation. I am wondering why is it important to have increased crit chance when in that situation? is it important because you can proc ss? is it important because you have to kill an enemy faster? is it important because you use the crits give dmg red on shade talent?

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Critical hits have armor pen and there are talents/trait that triggers when you land a critical hit.
You want that when you are about to die/being surrounded.
Also the first light attack is what you use the most cause you are constantly blocking/pushing/using an item/swaping weapon.

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The only use would be to proc blood drinker on shade (already has increased crit as a career), or proc swift slaying if it’s not up already.

first of all i don’t even notice the DD crit nerf, and i’ve played HM, WS and Shade with them, they feel the same, i get less blood drinker procs maybe, not a big deal.

Second, dual daggers should be unsafe and bad when surrounded. (has low stamina)

I also don’t understand this;

No, i’m not praying for a light crit, i’m looking for a way out. I don’t understand the looking for crit, if you really are surrounded having ss won’t help, blood drinker, sure, thats about it. I don’t know maybe i just don’t understand what situation you are trying to describe.

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As you said is it important because you can trigger swift slaying / can kill an enemy faster with assassin talent / trigger spring-heeled or blood drinker in case you use it, which almost any Shade use it.
Having increased chance on the first light benefits you way more than the other lights, also understand I am talking about Cataclysm.
If you are not praying for that hit it’s because you didn’t understand the situation, sometimes you feel heavy, like you will recieve dmg soon cause all talents are off, the sooner you trigger them up, the better.
I’ll try to edit the first post to make it clearer.

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That’s the drawback of a low cleave, low stamina, non ap weapon (except on heavy attacks). It relies on headshots/crits for optimal damage and doesn’t easily deal with high pressure situations like some other weapons. That’s what it gives up in exchange for fantastic single target dps.

Shade can still have 20% crit chance on the first two lights. That’s enough for almost constant up time for SS and any other crit reliant effects on a weapon this fast.

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Excuse me, 20%? shouldn’t it be 15%?
5% for being Shade, 5% on daggers and 5% on trinket.

The base crit chance of all weapons is 5%. It’s why FK still gets crits even if they don’t have crit chance on their gear and there isn’t a WHC in the team.

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Well, 20% feels pretty confortable, but still the first hit it’s the most important one because is what you use the most cause you are constantly blocking/pushing/using an item/swaping weapon, etc.

It would feel way more confortable ingame if you still have the bonus 10% on the first light attack.

Thanks you guys for questions/answers as I could improve the main post.

Well i’m also going to take this and say No i really don’t pray for that. If as an kerillian you allow yourself as a mobile character to get into this place then imo you have misplayed already.

In the beta patch I’ve done only 2-3 runs with DD and only with HM but from those few runs i really did not miss the extra crit chance and it rarely impacted how i approached situations.
Maybe i need the perspective from WS and Shade as well to truly say but my general opinion atm is that its extremely light nerf in the grand scheme.
The weapon is incredibly fast already which pretty much guarantees you can get enough attacks off to proc SS pretty consistently even without the extra crit.

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OK, so first of all D&D is NOT a horde control/stagger weapon, and its most useful hit is H1, not lightspam… The main role of D&D is to remove high threat meele(armored) targets like SV/CW with a well aimed H1 headshot, + it has good boss damage from the same… So relying on RNG to survive in a horde situation is just totally wrong, esp that it can only stagger 2 targets maximum with headshots. The nerf doesnt change the way you should play with daggers at all. Dont try to make it a control weapon bc its rly not.

My main philosophy when it comes to my builds is to have something to remove superarmor + to have something to control hordes. Lets take shade for example, i run it with D&D and hagbane. normally i can kill everything with daggers only , but as soon as there are more enemy that i can “control with them”(outdps/kill) i simply do 2-3 dodges sideways, push twice, dodge back, and shoot hagbane. I dont get hit, horde groups up, gets staggered, dies.

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You all misunderstood me, notice I said “Kinda surrounded of strong monsters” that doesn’t mean a full horde of monsters.
That can be 1 Monster and 2 SV or 3-4 SV for example.
I am from spain and my english is not perfect.

In this scenario it would not change anything because you would rely mainly on heavy attacks anyways.
Also anyone who actually frequents these forums don’t really care too much about grammar as long as your point comes across.

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Then excuse me, but you don’t know the breakpoints of DD, you can kill a SV with 1 light critical for example. While you need 2 heavys and they are slower.
It’s just as simple as the sooner you have the traits/talents the better.
IMHO would be better to have 10% on the first light then 0% on the rest, rather than 10% on the 3/4.
Also understand that we’re always mathematically talking. I am not saying that DD will be useless.

I’d rather rely on consistent damage instead of 30% crit chance, but if thats how you play thats fine.
Making it so you can light crit a sv to death in 1 strike more consistently is just broken. It should be that heavies are the best way to deal with armored enemies, if crit chance is so high that you can just spam lights then it should be changed.

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Yeah i got to agree with mattie here and personally i don’t really follow what kind of breakpoints legend has since i never really play it nowadays and in cata you are ALWAYS going to have to power attack stormvermin/chaos warriors for optimal DPS.
Also even if the above for light attacks would be true i’m still finding it odd that you wont take guaranteed power attack to the head 1 shot instead relying on light rng but yeah each to their own.

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We have half-stamina-shield pushes (more than compensates for low stamina), movespeed increase on attacks and 1.35 dodge distance.
When surrounded, if even dual daggers can only “hit twice or heavy attack then block”, then what do other weapons (besides shield bashes) do?
Our heavies are already the fastest burst armor dmg at 23 with zero properties :sunglasses:
Like mattie said - don’t use lights to fish for crits.
Just 1 shot head shot stormvermin with a heavy with smiter alone

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It’s a bit weird to have a different crit chance bonus while there is no visual changes in the moveset to indicate you’ve reached l3-4.

All and all, for a “crit based weapon”, 20% is laughable.

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