Elf spear heavy attack

Heavy Linesmen afaik but no armour sliding. Edit: I believe this is in effect the same as having just Linesmen.

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Aye it has heavy linesman right now but that’s basically the same as linesman when armour sliding isn’t included…there was a good reason I included that as part of the changes otherwise I’d have given it tank.

Yet they overbuffed Mace & Sword while they were at it :upside_down_face:
I have a lot of questions about how FS does things.

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Eh if FS added armour sliding and reversed the direction of the sweep heavy to make the combo look smoother they’d be in my good books for at least the next 6 months :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Edit: Sorry for pulling things off topic. I’ll bow out as I have little experience with Elf spear.

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well to go back to the topic of elf spear

I’d be ok with buffing the sweep a touch however the stab (and the chains it has) are perfectly good imo. I’m not sure how “prep to use” is problematic at all since doing L1>H2 is pretty fast and solid dps with a good reach.

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I remember we were on this topic before, do you have a time stamp in your spear true solo where you use the heavy sweep for this purpose?

With HM’s 15% aspd increase and shade’s uptime on swift slaying, I agree, but on waystalker, I do feel that it’s a bit slow to come out.

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Here are some examples. There are probably more in this run but I don’t end up using it a lot because of Asrai Alacrity:

  • I use the full heavy chain here to keep multiple Stormvermin staggered and maintain distance form them and the horde: https://youtu.be/U2wBISvtTk4?t=487 (I think this is the best example of what I mean).

Some not as good examples:

In the examples, if I were to use lights instead of the heavy sweep, I would not stagger the elites as often and would have to rely on using the Spear’s dodges (which it only has 3 of) to keep good distance from the horde and elites.

It’s harder to justify using the heavy sweep on Handmaiden because of HM’s stamina recovery and because of the talent Asrai Alacrity, mainly since the heavy sweep can’t be accessed after a push attack. You have to do push > heavy sweep instead of push attack > heavy stab to get the attack speed and power bonus for heavy sweep.

With Asrai Alacrity, push attack > heavy stab ends up being optimal for safety pretty much all the time (likely for dps as well): https://youtu.be/U2wBISvtTk4?t=290

If Asrai Alacrity wasn’t as dominant and if the heavy sweep had a bit more cleave, I think its usage would get solidified.

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I wouldn’t be upset if they adjusted the angle of attack. Getting headshots feels a little wonky with it sometimes.

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But the sweep has no armor or shield cleave though? Ontop of a low base cleave which leads to it doing very little IMO against a mixed horde. It´s also headshot reliant to really get any damage out which is not ideal for an attack with a wonky angle when one is moving around.

If i really want to clear out stormvermin in a horde ill either use push-stab-heavy or rain light attacks possibly into a heavy stab while fishing for headshots. Or even dash away and snipe them. Mobility wise doesnt the heavy sweep also require you also run willow&swift slaying to benefit ?

The attack is too slow otherwise…i think, and the only use is when you got a very small number of the lowest tier infantry infront of a target you want to hit.

I do think it´d be beneficial since i do not think the first heavy serves any purpose, all it does is force one to first light attack the air so one can use the 2nd heavy.

Damage? Cleave? Stagger? It doesnt do any of these particularly well and thats when headshotting.

Its not problematic per say, it just feels like making an effort to accomplish something that should be doable in a better way.

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Doesnt the halberd heavy sweep got heavy linesman stacked on it? Plus one of the best cleave damage falloffs in the game? Damage wise that attack is great.

It doesnt work well against armor though which really hurts T_T

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I think the spear is fine as is. I won’t go into detail as everyone else pretty much already did. Though, I came here to suggest - rather than change a weapon that isn’t broken (for better or worse) - would it be more beneficial to introduce (probably in Darktide’s release) several “fighting styles” for the same weapon?

Rather than just having one move-set for the same weapon, maybe being able to pick between two or three combo’s for that weapon would suffice? That way people can use their favorite weapon, but choose a different style that may be better for armor or hordes, or good at both (but not particularly the best at either)?

Just my 2 cents :slight_smile:

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Its damage cleave is 11.94 and its stagger cleave is 8.95. Not amazing, but better than the light sweep which has 10.45 damage cleave and 5.97 stagger cleave. Both have Linesmen. It has roughly triple the base armour damage of the light stabs and more stagger strength, so it can be used to cleave through a chaff mob to stagger an elite, and can chain into light stab > light sweep, which has its uses when out of stamina. Unlike the light sweep, it comes down from an above-crosshair direction, which is a small additional benefit.

The former comes at the cost of stamina, so it’s context/build/career dependent. The latter has less mobility and stagger strength.

You can see the movement speed boost in this document for Kerillian’s Spear’s heavy sweep on row 43 (column 1 shows it at 0% attack speed, column 2 at 10% etc). This is with a qq swap at the end, but you can do a similar thing just by dodging at the end of the sweep which is very natural: Vermintide2 Comprehensive Speedbook v3.1 - Google Sheets

It has Heavy Linesmen, but it doesn’t have armour sliding. Without armour sliding, Heavy Linesmen can’t do anything vs armoured targets. Outside of those enemies, which it can’t effect on the Halberd anyway, Heavy Linesmen has identical values to Linesmen afaik. I have no idea about its damage falloff, but I’ve never noticed its horde clear being noteworthy. Another reason why the heavy sweep is more useful on the Spear is because the Spear’s first light is a stab, while the Halberd’s is a sweep.

Also, in my opinion:

The Bretonnian Longsword’s L1’s damage cleave is 13.43 and its stagger cleave is 11.94.

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First couple impressions, sounds cool, balance nightmare and probably leaves styles completely unused.
As cool as I think this sounds its probably bit too complex to implement properly.

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Light attacks have a good headshot modifier though, and a pretty good critical one as well. The heavy sweep meanwhile only really packs any punch while cleaving through the lowest tier chaff.

Put a gor or a marauder in there and it doesnt work well at all.

I tested this mainly on the dummies admittedly but if you look at a weapon like krub greatsword then the damage falloff is such that the 3rd enemy hit by a heavy takes about 30% of what the 1st one does.All enemies beyond the third also take 30%

But the halberd heavy sweep does more, if i recall the falloff was capped at 50% while also having a higher base…the GS wins out in the end by having so much cleave though.

Isnt the bret sword reliant on all of krubs kit bonuses fueling his melee to be so good? GK for instance has smiter as a passive, plus the choice of smiter as a talent, and a 30% power bonus practically active through all horde fights.

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not really? Foot Knight can certainly get good mileage out of it at least

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Isnt good mileage very subjective…relative? And doesnt FK have at least one damage build?

But assuming one isnt using that build, how good mileage are we talking then? For instance i was running with a ladrielle handmaiden who told me that spear needs nothing to be good…then by the end up the run he has less melee kills than the dang grudge ranger and his(HM) damage was the lowest by a wide margin.

Despite running ahead and attacking a lot…i cant call that good for one : (

ehhh it gets into pretty subjective territory for sure especially if you throw skill into the equation

but you can run something like https://www.ranaldsgift.com/3/223112/44,2,3,6/12,3,5,2/3,2,1/4,5,4/7,2,2 and the BPs/dps are definitely comfy for base cataclysm.

A fair supply of extra power when dealing with elites…i´d be seriously tempted to run full on damage with the 3rd(Bull) of the 30 row though. Possibly with mainstay as well.

But for that build, skaven for hitting one or several breakpoints with their specials i´d assume but what is the 10% chaos for? And isnt barkskin almost redundant with so much innate damage reduction? And the stamina on the blade itself given he has passive extra?

Oh I agree entirely. I have no doubt that, if implemented, fighting styles will go unused. As soon as it’s introduced, “meta guides” will begin popping up with reasonings as to why “a-style” is better than “b-style” (with some hard-to-ignore math/logic to back it up probably), and you’ll see a sharp decline in the use of certain things, like in many games nowadays, unfortunately ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Regarding balance, I personally think all weapons are balanced now as is, as I mentioned in another post (regarding “What makes a good weapon?”), and I’m constantly surprised by people who make weapons that I’m not that great with, shine somehow. I’m not sure if “true balance” will ever be achievable in a game with choice involved, as it’s a mix between player skill and what the game has to offer. The only game I can think of that is truly balanced is Super Mario Bros (1985) for the NES, where you have 1 character, with an unchangeable run/ jump speed/height and that was it. The second you introduce choice, it begins to devolve. My suggestion of “weapon styles” above might actually make this worse haha.


Back on the topic at hand, someone might also argue that changing the first heavy attack to a stab would make it less viable for hordes. Then what, do we change it back again? :thinking:

While it’s light attacks are great for hordes (with it’s stabs doing full damage to everything it “pokes” through), it doesn’t exactly have a wide-attack-arc. The first charge-wide-sweep allows you to literally “sweep” those enemies to your left and right pretty handily, as some hordes don’t always come at you in a straight line. Also, the light pokes are actually good vs armor, if you can hit the head, which isn’t too difficult for weapons that “poke”, given they’re a pretty straight-shot. The spear itself also already has great mobility added into it. If it were to be “more viable” against it’s only real weakness … I guess that would make it OP then, and another topic would open to discuss nerfs to it. This is where player-skill comes into play though, I guess.

I appreciate that each weapon has something vastly different to offer, and I’m sure certain classes talents may make the spear more comfortable to use for some, but by default, I think it’s perfectly fine as is.

mainstay is actually overall less dps than enhanced power.

nope, still useful

that one is personal preference, it’d be better to run crit chance for swift slaying uptime

I’m just running deathwish breakpoints usually, don’t mind that

idk what else I’d run on that row, I don’t care about the stagger power and I don’t particularly feel I need the attack speed.

The light stabs do, but the light sweep doesn’t, which is the attack it should be compared against. The stagger should do fine if cleaving through one mob and hitting an SV, probably not if cleaving through two, will depend on if the attack headshots the elite (definitely possible since it’s a good angle). Harder to test because you have to line them up and get the elite to do a non-overhead attack/push, and will likely require some power to do it (Focused Spirit should be enough I imagine).

I tested Kerillian’s Spear’s heavy sweep and Kruber’s Halberd’s heavy sweep against two sets of three Marauders. Both tests had 10% vs Chaos and no other damage/power/cleave boosting properties or talents. Both weapons got 21 on the 1st Marauder, followed by 16 on the 2nd and finishing with 9 on the 3rd.

Foot Knight has 25% power and 30% attack speed, without access to Smiter. It’s decent to mediocre power and damage. The Bretonnian Longsword’s light is a relatively-high cleave attack and what I was using as a reference point for a cleave buff. This would let the heavy sweep cleave one more unstaggered Marauder with 10% power from a talent. This sounds minor, but in a game, since enemies are often staggered (which reduces their mass) it means more than one might expect.

Not running Bull of Ostland smh.

According to the breakpoint calc, with Have At Thee up, your build lets the Handgun 1 shot bodyshot Globadiers and Leeches/Stormers at distance, as well as 1 shot bodyshot Bestigors at close range and 1 shot headshotting them at distance. It also lets you get away with headshotting Maulers for Conservative Shooter ammo sustain, as with this build it takes 2 headshots at close range with headshots or 2 bodyshots, but without the extra 10% power it’s 3 headshots and 2 bodyshots.
If you swapped 10% vs Infantry with 10% vs Monsters, you’d get a Packmaster 1 shot headshot at distance with Have At Thee up, would be niche though.

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