Fireball and griffin foot decimates armored units. Damn, I must be doing something wrong. Please share your vast experience with us mortals.
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You admit that most Bardin 2H are unusable without swift slaying but insist its more important to the elf in the same post. Somehow this checked out in your head as not totally self defeated and conceding to my point. I’ll also point out the math again that taking 20% off a 0.7s or longer attack is a bigger DPS boost than taking 20% off 0.37-0.5s moves. And there are moves even slower than that like greathammer lights/rapier 2nd heavies. So yes swift slaying matters more to characters that attack slower and that is entirely true. You’re free to post some walk around nonsense that agrees with me in the end again if you so choose but that is the long and short. Slower weapons need attack speed more and benefit the most from swift slaying.
I mention crit chance for BH because he also has inherent crit psynergy with his weapons like the elf but no extra crit chance for melee. You yourself claimed it was irrelevant and unimportant for the elf but if it were on a generalist melee weapon for Victor it would be a huge game changer for BH. You only get 2 trinket properties and cooldown reduction would be a much better buff for BH because of its interaction with double shotted but everyone has to run crit chance so they aren’t putting out like 1/2 the melee damage the rest are. If said crit chance doesn’t really change anything for the elf why not remove it then?
Her DPS outpaces the rest of the game in melee so the lack of cleave and stagger is totally justified there. Unless you think the greathammer tickling enemies it sends flying around is an issue, other characters are paying a worse price in DPS and mobility in every situation.
Again I’d encourage you to look through the armory and play the game more if you don’t think these extra properties on moves don’t impact more than they do. I’m 300+ max rank with each character and the elf has less weaknesses or hers are almost irrelevant. Your best comparisons don’t even stack up lol. We get it, you spent the most time by far with her and thought a lot of that was your natural talent or something.
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Not to agree or disagree with your post, just the math. Swift slaying is a flat 20% speed increase. Slow weapons may feel like they benefit more, but mathematically all weapons are getting a 20% increase to dps for 5 seconds. e.g. 5 attacks doing 20 damage each and 10 attacks doing 10 damage each, totaling 100 damage in 5 seconds. Add SS for 6x20 and 12x10 for 120 damage. 20% increase in both cases! Slow weapons may feel better because a human can notice .17s more readily than .08s. Kind of the reason why the myth of 50% attack speed being the cap has been perpetuated.
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Alright now we just need to find an Elf weapon he finds unbearable without swift slaying. Either way.
You sir, need reading glasses.
I stated thusly :
This applies to all characters, and i noted that keri does it on nearly all her weapons with the intent to point out that reliance on swift slaying for a smooth melee feeling isnt exactly a problem that only one or two has. Or something the elf doesnt suffer from.
And then i followed up with a sentence about some bigger and slower weapons indeed feeling pretty bad without some extra speed. This again, applies to all characters like keri with her glaive.
A statement which shows just how much you do not know.
Swift slaying grants 20% flat, so the DPS output is raised fairly evenly across all weapons, there is no “this benefits much more” or whatnot because they all gain the same amount more or less.
Faster but lower cleave weapons get quick enough to bypass the weakness of low cleave while slower cleaving weapons get fast enough to bypass the weakness of slow speed.
And yet there is so much you have no idea about, time well spent.
Not necessarily true as you´d know if you read what i wrote, but i´ll state it again, in more depth this time.
A weapon by default being faster doesnt automatically mean its just better when it can have much less cleave/stagger which interferes with its ability to control hordes and output damage. The elven spear is a fairly good example of this since it´s a fast weapon but it does not control larger groups with its clearing attacks (lacking cleave/stagger) so you want a certain degree of extra speed to ensure you output enough attacks to keep enemies from being able to hit you by stacking up and abusing a few taking the damaging hits while the rest go safe.
You can push hordes for some control but that does no damage, if you try to rely on that you´ll just clear slowly at best or run outa stamina and die at worst. But on the opposite end of the spectrum we have Krubers greatsword, slow and clunky but has a ton of base cleave. As long as the GS reaches a baseline of extra attackspeed it basically has no gaps for enemies to exploit except running him down with heavy armor/specials.
…
What is the common point between them? Both want more speed for an optimal experience.
And when did i state anything about elf not needing crit in melee? The only thing i wrote on something even remotely related was that holstered weapons do not provide stat boosts. As for bounty maybe getting better if say rapier/billhook had 5% innate crit? I really do not think so, his THP generation would still be crap. Because his THP talents are crap and have no synergy with the class.
And you even dare raise the idea of it being a good thing to do so he can run more stuff to boost double shotted? How about no, that ability should be nerfed, then he can have a decent THP talent and he´d be mostly balanced at last. This is something i am nearly 100% certain most of these forums agree on or at least most if not all the regulars and long timers.
B*llshit, highest melee DPS if just using weapons goes to kruber with several weapons like mace&sword, even greatsword has been noted for the best DPS when there´s enough enemies about to justify using it…
I think it was Velsix who recently showed that something like a maxed SnD or WHC (non fleanse) rapier does about 120-130 DPS in a horde fight while M&S does 200+.
When did i state that either? The one time i stated anything about stats being irrelevant was in this conversation :
You made a weird statement about bounty hunter not running crit on his ranged as if that matters to his melee at all? Crit chance on ranged weapons does not affect your critical chance while in melee and the reverse is true as well. Even if you have 100% crit chance on your melee weapon that does not carry over to your ranged one.
You can’t seriously be ignorant about that? Mr 300+ levels on all characters?
Glaive, 1h axe, greatsword, dual swords and the spear, all these weapons just feel bad without extra speed…but that´s entirely my own subjective opinion. I’ve no doubt you got one or two yourself.
I think SS as a whole has spoiled me a bit when it comes to the combat flow of the game. SS allows you to be more aggressive against hordes and this applies to all weapons pretty much. Unless I take something else (I think Resourceful Combatant is STILL BUGGED) like Opportunist for the stagger builds, why wouldn’t you want a combat steroid that makes you flat out stronger with the simple cost of getting a single crit on an enemy which isn’t huge depending on build/weapon and has decent uptime?
Without SS however, I feel people couldn’t take on the hordes like they do in those videos you see of Core duking it out against the Onslaught mod hordes. It certainly slows the pace at which you can advance against hordes or hell even hold them back without giving ground.
EDIT: Perhaps it’s not a matter of “Unbearable without SS” but because it’s simply the best option and the most viable one, why not? Especially with Elf. Having a trait is all fine and dandy but playstyle determines need. Aggressive and ready to fight hordes head on? SS all the way. Parry? Too situational. Resorceful Combatant? BUGGED Off Balance? Heroic Intervention? (Insert Jonah Jameson laughing meme here) Off Balance? Maybe on Spear and Shield? Or you could just make up for the damage you would lose out on with SS.
In essence: BUFF/FIX/ADD THE OTHER WEAPON TRAITS FS FFS GDI SS meta is fine, I just want some REAL variety at this point.
As you noted, most traits aside from SS or opportunist just flat out sucks or are bugged…and sucks.
Heroic intervention, ha, longest living bug in the game yet.
…
But on a serious note, honestly i think you could play most weapons that now run SS, even slower ones, just fine with opportunist instead but i also believe it would feel a fair lot worse to play. Slower and clunkier. I´ve tried with Krubs greatsword for additional monk control for instance.
Did it work? Yes, did i like it more than swift slaying? nah.
Right and you steer the topic off onto new balance issues fat shark dumped on the game instead of wondering why sword and dagger heavy 2 needs to be a fast overhead strike that ignores super armor and has 3 times the regular crit chance. Oh no griffon foot bounty hunter exists so we can’t touch that. The rest of the time he hovers between useless and bad because of his THP. And if something has psynergy with a kit (cooldown reduction) it needs to be nerfed. But this also doesn’t apply to the sword and dagger, no. You’re just a tired parody of yourself. No one disagrees about mace and sword. No one disagrees about battle wizard. It gets brought up in every topic as if it’s some deflection from the fact that you don’t need a specific elf career to make her meta weapons good. Which means that no amount of buffing the rest is going to change anything.
Literally no attempt to defend sword and dagger anymore just some fly off into ‘lol you mentioned crit chance and already explained exactly what that meant but here I am being a tool’. Good thing you contribute nothing of value so you can be ignored from here on, you don’t have anything new to say.
Swift slaying is actually better on fast attacking weapons as higher overall attack speed means it almost never falls off and it rarely takes long to initially proc when one starts attacking. The bonus crit on many elf weapons only makes it better still. The state of swift slaying versus other melee traits really says it all when it comes to how little Fatshark cares about balance in this game. Swift slaying and elf careers…what’s balance again? Rofl…
Some of this looks more like it would fit more in a private message.
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Pure math isn’t going to show the full usefulness of SS, as your DPS uptime is always going to be a limiting factor, and animation speed is something that impacts that a lot. A weapon that already has a very fast animation is much easier to get damage out with under very high pressure than one with a long windup, generally speaking.
A slower weapon will get a more notable boost from an AS increase as you’re simply going to be able to attack more often with it, whereas a quick weapon can already attack fairly consistently and safely.
This is fairly broad too of course, it varies a lot on weapon, but I don’t think that white room numbers really paint the full picture of how SS impacts different general categories of weapon.
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I am raising comparisons since you are sprouting crap? Yes its true that SnD has very high superarmor damage and high crit on the 2nd heavy.
But that´s not what we were talking about? You raised DPS in general as a question and thats where we started. And saying that SnD has the highest DPS just like that is just objectively false.
Then on the topic off SnD heavy 2, something that you only mentioned now, the reason it has 10% bonus crit chance and high damage is because unlike rapier (similar weapon) it cant use the heavy attack as freely since it´s locked behind another move.
Slower attacks always tend to do something more than faster ones…does this mean i think the core idea for having higher than average damage there is fine? Yes , do i think it is slightly too much? Also yes. The extra crit chance on that attack specifically could be lowered to 5% or even entirely removed.
…You havent realized there are entire threads dedicated to discussing the fact that monsters and lords are getting crapped on, with bounty hunter being named as one of the primary culprits of that?
Not the only one but one of the major ones.
Because the SnD + elf combo is in general nowhere near as broken as doubleshot griffonfoot bounty hunter. He directly competes with the most busted crap the elf does like moonbow SoT or even outright beats her in a run with a lot of hordes.
Waystalker with longbow and SnD? Doesnt even touch a hair on his head…and you still havent explained why the heck you mentioned bounty hunter not running crit chance on his ranged weapon being relevant?
Crit chance on the ranged weapon does not affect anything except the ranged weapon.
Reason i raised those was to point out that SnD does not have the highest DPS, even when maxed, i never breathed a word about me thinking the others being balanced or not.
And i mean, sure you do not need a specific elf career to make SnD shine like saltz needs WHC for rapier…but on that note, WHC can outright oneshot a chaos warrior with a maxed rapier crit headshot. IMO that makes SnD needing like 4-5 heavies look pretty tame.
Is it a good thing that rapier doesnt do that by default? YES.
The rest of her weapons? ROFL, again you demonstrate what you´ve not been paying attention to, she´s had other weapons be the dominant picks over SnD and the only reason why SnD is more or less the only one now is because the others got nerfed.
What the heck? ._.
You didnt say a word about SnD until this very comment, i never said a word about SnD either, so why are you suddenly acting like it was the core of our talk until now and? You´ve been making several responses to things i or you never said a word about.
Is it just my imagination or is he making responses to things i never said a word about and then blaming me for not stating SnD is overpowered when we thus far havent stated a word about it? O_O
I seriously started to doubt what the heck i´ve written so far to the point where i´ve scrolled back up and re read my conversation with him a few times but i am still confused. Several of his responses from my perspective came completely out of the blue.
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It is broad; weapons that have a higher DPS, but slower animation are going to benefit more from SS than a lower DPS but quicker animation. Likewise a higher DPS with quick animations is going to benefit from SS more than a slower and lower DPS weapon.
Raw DPS/damage needs to be considered before suggesting if a weapon is too strong/weak. Attack speed will make slower weapons more useable, but if they have low damage, it will not inherently solve that.
Testing DPS against dummy hordes and armor is only one part of the story. Factor in reach, mobility, stagger, terrain, attack angle, etc. when doing a test versus live enemies will throw human skill into the equation and largely nullify the test.
If, for example, Sword and Dagger is to be quantified into a category of power it should be tested in a box first, so one can find DPS, TTK, etc. However those values are not the whole story. Stagger is inherently an offensive trait, as it allows players to attack more. Can one measure the value of stagger as easily as DPS? Weapon reach is likewise an offensive trait because it determines how much damage one can inflict before needing to block or dodge outside of effective reach. Is it possible to easily quantify the risk of attacking when played against dummies? Otherwise player skill needs to be considered. Then what skill level is the balance to be developed upon?
My point is with so much of the balance being “what feels balanced”; it is so subjective that one may begin to stray away from objectivity. Raw values are extremely important, and despite being difficult to work with for many people, that is where balance discussions should be centered.
Back on the topic of Elf SoTT being OP: how does she compare to the rest of Elf classes? Mathematically does the 25% increased party healing with Pale queens choosing outscale the 3 health per 10 of Waystalker? Does the Thorn Nuke deal more damage than a Shade ult? Does the 50% increased damage to low health targets deal more damage than 50% backstab damage?
Some things need to be isolated in a vacuum before human “this feels too strong” comes into play.
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Yes to all these things.
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First one is bit misleading, because the 3 per 10 hp only activates when character is under 50 % health while 25 % increase gives constant value regardless of the situation. Its also 25% increase for everyone without talent investment so to me its no brainer.
2nd one is really contextual, are we talking about mist or cloak of pain? Are we taking radiant inheritance and morai into account? Even just raw damage comparison is hard because it depends on so much what we are nuking. I would say in terms of simply what you get from cooldown and utility wise, I would choose thorn every time. Either way we are comparing potentially 2 of the most problematic abilities in the game.
3rd one is the most obvious comparison point and honestly I have no idea how much value the SoTTs passive is in terms of breakpoints. Doubt its going to be better tough.
Backstab bonus does deal more damage once it is activated, but, you have to backstab for it, which is fricking difficult to do when fighting say a horde or something. And even if you abuse the CoM + vanish combo you do not really profit from it since she instantly kills on critical backstabbs.
So given the much, much muuuuch lower uptime it has compared to SoT´s edition of it the end result is that the latter is much more helpful and ends up doing a lot more. And the breakpoints are there.
I cant present a compete or detailed picture as i havent played her since finishing her challenges but i recall noting that several of her weapons just feel so dang much better in her hands, spear and 1h sword being notable examples.
At least they did in the chaos wastes…might have skewed the results but oh well.
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Mye the uptime was something I considered but then I thought about that 50 % hp translates to roughly 25 % damage increase, so will that actually break any meaningful breakpoints for it to be worth it?
Anything lower hp wise and you are probably going to kill the target anyways.
Even the backstab from shade gets on avg 1 less hit on most enemies (looking at S&D here) so the numbers just don’t seem to be there.
To me it just feels like its highly over rated damage increase considering most of it is going to be overkill anyways. But ye I don’t have any solid numbers or testing done with sott to really say anything one way or a other ( I absolutely despise the career)
Obviously for a passive its not useless but if we are comparing it to backstab some actual numbers will be needed to determine real value.
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Its effect on trash felt quite negligable, but as I was doing her challenges the bonus against wounded enemies felt like it helped a lot against Maulers, CW, and Monsters. Against those it might as welll read something like “25% overall damage increase”, which felt significant enough.
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Murder Spites is great. With all of Shade’s chronic problems with being overpowered, backstab as a passive is inconsistent bupkiss and the very least of elf’s problems.
Now, I do not think Murder Spites is OP. When it was a talent on Huntsmen, no one liked it. Probably because all of Kruber’s weapons are slow and high damage so it’s only value were against monsters.
Elf’s damage over time makes it work. Weak, constant damage is where the value comes from. That and her DoTs are already OP. We know about moonbow, but with Hunter and some power versus skaven/armor you can wipe armored elites and specials with branch staff the same way. It won’t do a ton of overkill damage to get you your green circle, but it’s efficient.
https://www.ranalds.gift/heroes/18/223322/26-1-3-6/74-3-6-3/3-2-1/1-4-1/2-7-3 this is the build. It’s so easy to horde crits and just lay waste to elites
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