Elf needs a nerf

That´s mostly because skaven hordes are a weak joke <.<

I see em come running in with no elites or even wooden shields way too often even on cata and it feels like i could defend a mountain pass with a broomstick against em.

A few sweeps and the whole bunch is down.

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Strongly agree about the stagger part. I frequently use stagger breakpoint guides when making builds and every time I look at Bret Sword’s breakpoints I’m disgusted. Heavy 1 and 2 interrupt all SV attacks by default. With Opportunist and 0 power they stagger plague monks out of their chain attack. Why on earth does it stagger most enemies as well or better than a 2h hammer? It’s absurd.

Regarding Coruscation specifically BW does almost nothing for it so I don’t know why she’s even being mentioned here. It has the strongest synergy with Pyro by a mile but the alt fire needs no help whatsoever to dish out insane amounts of damage on every and any possible target. It seems to even do weirdly well against CWs, and SV patrols get melted in no time at all. I don’t really have an issue with the primary fire, it’s pretty expensive and does what it should at close range, seems to drop off pretty hard at range due to the spread from personal experience so I don’t see an issue there. Alt fire just needs a damage reduction, either generally or specifically against armour.

Griffinfoot I’m torn. It is too good at demolishing hordes, however it is somewhat compensated by being significantly worse against elites and specials at mid range compared to other shotguns due to the wide spread. I’d never bring it into a Cata solo, the loss in special sniping ability would be way too dire. Of course even if specialising being too strong at a niche is still problematic, nobody should be soloing entire Cata hordes with a ranged weapon, that’s not fun for anybody and with a coordinated team with party comp taken into consideration I can see how it would do too well at wiping basically all infantry off the map.

I still think some of y’all are massively overhyping javelins. @Velsix and I already said our piece on that earlier in the thread and I’m not seeing anything convincing to the contrary honestly. Take away Morai Hegs and it’s nothing that special compared to other ranged weapons besides being a bit brainless due to no ammo. Staggering CWs on non crit body shot is silly though, that should go and it’s cleave could be tuned down a bit. Otherwise leave it alone.

If memory serves correctly Tuskgor spear originally had around shield levels of BCR modifier as well as push strength. Both were nerfed accordingly and I’d struggle to describe the current iteration as overpowered, though certainly very strong. Stagger strength of the push attack and heavy sweeps are a bit much for a damn spear but overall I think it’s mostly fine, albeit weirdly sweep focused and not as interesting to use or unique as it should be.

Also @Adelion I could have sworn flaming flail always had the stagger AoE on heavy 1. Pretty sure the BBB just added damage or burn dot to it as well, which doesn’t really change its CC ability. @Incandescent can you confirm/deny?

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Hm, possible. Wouldnt put my hand into fire for that. But I remember that I had discussions with people on this board that Fire Flail is a perfectly fine weapon (before BBB) and they argued that it is not very strong. Now, it is mostly considered meta. Just the addition of the dot seems like a very minor change to create such a change in perception.

:+1:

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Not sure but it dont apply a lot of dots or its only refresh instead of applying new from gouts, but melting sv patrol with fireball is not that hard and placing it takes similar time to throwing fireball or 2 so not sure about that. I need to test it more probably.

Its slow but even then its have enough power to compensate for that slowness its usefull without any atk spd.

Ah to be clear, the powerful part of the staff is that it doesnt really require much active input for how much you get, you toss down a few spots and then you are done and can go into melee.

With fireball or another staff you got a powerful tool as long as you can use it but if getting rammed by enemies at close quarters you wont get much use out of many them.

But with that staff? You´ve already done well and will get a lot as long as you manage to toss one or two down in the general area of the fight. You can even throw down a few and kite a boss back and forth over them to deal a significant amount of DPS to it.

And it works on chaos warriors too.

With something like a beamstaff or fireballs you gotta aim and manage heat plus be rather mindful of your surroundings but that staff your surroundings are on fire (in your favor) and you can more or less just run around holding block while enemies burn to death pretty quickly.

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Yeah I know it must be a bit much because I’ve run it on this UC build that is 90% a meme and it still performs very very well:
https://www.ranalds.gift/heroes/15/233212/41-1-4-6/73-1-6-6/3-2-5/4-5-4/2-7-3

It just does so much damage, with any talents/traits to let you spam it more it’s so easy to set up a few walls and fight enemies right on top of them as they all melt away in no time.

Yeah okay thats explains your part of how you think its op.

Anyway back to elgi being op.

How is Mist Shade nowadays? I’ve heard nothing of that build for a while. Is SotT stronger than current BW? Since when did BW stop being OP? Is SotT stronger than peak Mist Shade?

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Well I don’t think any of those things are less OP than they were (BW, SoTT, Hagbane, Flail on Unchained, Boss killers wiping skarrik and Gatekeeper in seconds, Mistshade still OP really, and even things like Merc DR on ult and so on)

It’s just that those things are just Really OP, whereas newer stuff is absolutely F*cking OP. The level of OP’ness has been elevated to the point that Merc giving everyone damage reduction and THP with his ult pales into insignificance compared to double javelin WS staggering CW miles in the distance.

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Mist shade is still really strong when in a good spot but can no longer unconditionally vaporize stormvermin patrols and the like easily. A tiny measure to make the invis spam harder went a decent way.

As for SoT vs BW, i think SoT is better against elites while BW does better against large numbers. And SoT is probably a bit weaker than peak Mistshade since that one was a semi invisible engine of murder.

Haha yea, and yep, still really strong as in can walk behind a horde and just start wailing them down in no time, elites included, while also doing really well on the DPS front normally.

A nerf to the CDR thingy on that and she´d probably be mostly fine.

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Yeah god forbid elf players have to think for a bit.

I’m not disagreeing but Mistshade is still very strong, just not stupidly strong.

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I still think Mist completely shatters balance.

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DoT isn’t on the AOE, it’s just damage

before the BBB there was no damage, only an AOE stagger

Unchained also become much much stronger. People aren’t really running around with Flail BW

it’s stupidly strong

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Isn’t it very tricky now to chain vanish with it? Why do you say it’s still stupidly strong? Just raw DPS and general invisibility uptime?

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yup :^)

you can still trivialize content very easily without needing to use vanish at all

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This is exactly what I’m on about. Something that would usually cause some level of outrage is faded into nothing because there’s so many things that are completely idiotic when it comes to power creep. Shade still being a DPS monster is suddenly a minor thing. compared to moonfire or MWP which is comedy gold.

The problem is this - solving the moonfire, javelin, SoTT or MWP is just like skimming the surface off a puddle of scum… there’s still a lot of scum to deal with even if you deal with the top layer.

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Just to be clear I wasn’t asking because I think Mist Shade is fine. I just genuinely don’t play it so wanted to clarify what state it’s in currently.

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I think we all agree the cleave and stagger of the Javelins is too much. Possibly the melee damage as well, but as a ranged weapon besides the cleave and stagger it’s fine.

Here’s some rough numbers for the Javelin’s single target dps with its melee attack, which I tested with UI Tweaks’ dps buff tracker:

  • Superamour: 50
  • Monster: 110

And for the Spear:

  • Superarmour: 50
  • Monster: 83

This was without Swift Slaying or properties. With Swift Slaying, Spear is better vs superamour, close vs monsters, while being more mobile effectively speaking (much better movespeed during attacks, only loses out on 5% dodge range). The Javelin compliments a weapon that does low monster dps well, but will not make up for poor superarmour dps without crit fishing, which is also true for the Longbow. Note: The elf Greatsword has about the same superarmour dps as these two.

My recommendations are:

  • Reduce the cleave to slightly below Bolt staff levels. It can be higher than other snipers, that’s fine, but not higher than a Volcanic Force Battle Wizard.
  • Reduce the stagger. Frankly I think it’s silly that the Throwing Axes stagger CWs so easily as well, but haven’t mentioned it because that’s one of the few things they have. The Javelins however do not need this stagger.
  • Reduce the dps of the melee attack to slightly below Spear levels. This lets it compliment low monster and superarmour dps melee weapons still like Dual Swords.

The apparent lack of damage dropoff is fine because its breakpoints are poor. I’m receptive to any criticisms of my suggestions.

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I’ve played a Legendary game on SoTT and then on WHC - frankly it felt like 2 difficulties.
WHC is crazy strong - if you’re able to headshot everything… I had to use a bomb just because the horde had 2 SW and 1 ShSW in it and I just couldn’t drop them. It requires skill to be a good WHC.
SoTT just did more damage than the whole team combined - I didn’t have to be worried about mixed hordes (ULT+javelin) you can drop CW from the distance with a couple of javelin crits, if not 1 crit hs…
IDK, she’s just too powerful.
Frankly if you change her +50% bonus damage to be -50% damage overall, I’m not sure it’d be sufficient.
Also, I think all bonus crits just have to go. They are just unfair.
I kinda used to be on the fence on this issue but seeing the power discrepancy with my own eyes in a couple of otherwise similar runs persuaded me.
She’s the most broken prestige so far, GK is balanced in comparison with her.

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